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 Post subject: Burma
PostPosted: Sun 14 Oct , 2007 9:50 pm 
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It would appear that every Buddhist monk in Burma was carted off to concentration camps during the week. Journalists are being hunted down by the Army, the police, and pro Junta vigilantes. (The first two will arrest you, the last will kill you).

Why does no one act?

Why do all these so called "bastions of human rights" and "advocates of freedom" simply do nothing?
Why?

ETA: Cross posted with HoF.

Edited because I think this is something that needs to be discussed, and it would be a terrible shame to lock it.

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Last edited by Crucifer on Mon 15 Oct , 2007 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Oct , 2007 11:33 pm 
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Because they've squandered all their resources on that stupid stupid Iraq war.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 12:01 am 
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There's already a bashing America thread Crucifer.

And you try my patience my friend this thread was started for the sole intent on pissing off Americans (Unites Stats residents for Ber :D) which doesn't fly in my book. I do believe this what we call trolling and it won't be tolerated.

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 Post subject: Re: Burma
PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 12:36 am 
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Crucifer wrote:

Why does that "great advocate of freedom", that protector from communism, America, simply stand by and watch?

Why?

Same reason noone else is acting. No oil and it would probably piss off China.

Ah, the joys of being the US. You get involved and people get angry. You stay out and people still get angry. :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 2:32 am 
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And exactly what are us simple citizens supposed to do about it? We don't choose how the government uses our military and our recourses.

I am with TheMary, here.. I have no quarrel with starting a thread to discuss the situation in Burma, but a thread just to attack American's is really unfair. :neutral: If you have some other reason for this thread, then please enlighten us

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 2:49 am 
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Why do we always need the Americans to intervene in this situation, anyways? :)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the US, I'm just saying why not the member countries of the ASEAN (Association of South East Asian Nations) go meet and find a solution to this. I know some of their member countries sent peacekeepers to places like Haiti and Iraq. Why don't they help out their own neighbor.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 3:32 am 
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That is a very good question but as River pointed out, they probably don't wanna piss off China. Although the tact wasn't the greatest I think Crucifer was trying to point out certain things that were being pointed out in the bash U.S. thread. Although a lot of other countries could help too.I mean on the news here (Canada) they talk about it like it's just Burma's problem. I think there is some talks in the UN but I am not sure.

I find it pretty disgusting here that people are pretty apathetic about voting ( I worked in an election lat week and dang it was sad) , when people in Burma (and other places) are dying to get the oppourtunity.

About what the average citizen can do about it (the Burma situation)? Contact your MP or State rep and tell them you are concerned. It's they job to make sure your concerns are communicated to the government. I think that is what gets lost here with people saying they don't vote, they don't think it makes a difference, but the thing is a lot of people don't know to contact their state rep or mp to voice their concerns. That is what the MP or State rep is there for, they are supposed to work for you whether you voted for them or not. So the average citizen is not as powerless as they think they are. (This is why voting matters peeps.)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 4:15 am 
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Wilma wrote:
About what the average citizen can do about it (the Burma situation)? Contact your MP or State rep and tell them you are concerned. It's they job to make sure your concerns are communicated to the government. I think that is what gets lost here with people saying they don't vote, they don't think it makes a difference, but the thing is a lot of people don't know to contact their state rep or mp to voice their concerns. That is what the MP or State rep is there for, they are supposed to work for you whether you voted for them or not. So the average citizen is not as powerless as they think they are. (This is why voting matters peeps.)


Wilma,
I ask you this? Are you one of those in favour of our troops going to Afganistan in the first place. If your answer is Yes, then I say go ahead.

If your answer is No, then why Burma, isn't Afganistan a country that needs our help, too. How about places you haven't heard of in the news where there is civil unrest? Are you telling me that we help all these countries that are having problems? I'm not saying we shouldn't help them. Who gets priority then, the country that gets a lot of media attention or a country so small you don't even know where it is?

Yes, no man is an island but sometimes the Islanders need to step up as well. I can cite countries that overthrow dictatorships with little or no international help at all. It takes time, there is no band aid solution to this. If we always go in and help we will be at war with each other all the time.

Did we go in North Korea when the people are dying of hunger? Did we go to China when they rounded up protesting students? No!!!

I may sound harsh, but sometimes it's better for the citizens of the said country find solutions to their problems instead of having their "big brother/s" always intervening. Let them stand up and say to the goverment, we don't want to be "bossed around" any longer.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 4:32 am 
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Off topic: Re: Voting

Wilma wrote:
I find it pretty disgusting here that people are pretty apathetic about voting ( I worked in an election lat week and dang it was sad) , when people in Burma (and other places) are dying to get the oppourtunity.


Are you sure?
Voter turnout in most parts of the world are low esp. in the third world, unless a very significant political event happens like a dictator being ousted. People have lost their belief in the electoral system esp. younger ones.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 11:58 am 
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Crucifer, please edit your first post to remove the inflammatory remarks, or the thread will be locked.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 1:24 pm 
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Mary, this thread wasn't started to bash America. You apparently fear it to be. What we gotta realize is that it's ok to throw off the chains and realize we are in a unique spot as Americans to do great good.

Fuck China.

Why does America always have to intervene? Because we're the most powerful, which makes us responsible to safeguard the helpless.
Why do people get pissed when America acts or doesn't act? They get pissed when America doesn't do the right thing....as the most powerful country in the world, it is our RESPONSIBILITY, by the mere existence of our power. We have the Ring....now what are we gonna do w/ it?? Nothing?? Are we just gonna hold onto it & use it to secure our oil? That's what the people get pissed at: our inaction at neutralizing the evil of our Ring.

But no, we spend our resources(our Ring) securing $ in the form of oil....in my opinion, completely hypocritical of what Bush claimed to stand for: Democracy & Freedom from "Terror" and "Evil doers".

Fuck the Iraq "war". Stopping mass killing of monks, some of the finest humans on the planet, should come over kissing the ass of China, (and the tyranny of Iraq for oil) who mind you is "buying" our debt. Fuck China. I don't buy things made in China anymore. If everyone would do the same, China would fall to its knees and quit playing tyrant w/ all the "inferior" countries around it. But no, we Americans are too concerned w/ the easiest, softest way for our own lazy asses: Wal-Mart. and about Keeping up with the Jones's.----> Mainly b/c, as a mass, we are ignorant of what's really going on. We're too hypnotized by the media/TV.

Fuck China.
And as for those getting pissed off about "America bashing:" We're not bashing America, we're bashing the way America is behaving. I love America... the greatest fucking country in the World. No one is gonna violently take us w/o taking themselves our(nuclear armaggedon) Which is why it is our responsibility to use the Power we have to do good. Or, just like the Ring of Power....we must use our willpower to neutralize the evil. This country was founded on Freedom...on people saying "Fuck you! We're gonna do this." Don't be afraid to throw off chains.

Inaction is bad karma for America. Inaction is an action. May God help us as a country of individuals ACT!!!!!!!!!!

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Quote:
How about places you haven't heard of in the news where there is civil unrest? Are you telling me that we help all these countries that are having problems? I'm not saying we shouldn't help them. Who gets priority then, the country that gets a lot of media attention or a country so small you don't even know where it is?



Good point. Nonetheless, we should act more than we do. Doing something is better than nothing. With first, as individuals, to learn to sift through media.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 4:11 pm 
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So last night Jnyusa posted some very insightful comments regarding Burma at the Hall of Fire. I recommend everyone who hasn't seen it already go take a look.

The US has not been sitting on its hands. The problem isn't China.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 6:57 pm 
A song outlasts a dynasty.
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TheMary wrote:
There's already a bashing America thread Crucifer.

And you try my patience my friend this thread was started for the sole intent on pissing off Americans (Unites Stats residents for Ber :D) which doesn't fly in my book. I do believe this what we call trolling and it won't be tolerated.


This is not a bash the US thread. This is a let's discuss Burma and why nobody is helping Burma thread. That's why the title is Burma.

I used America as in my first post because it has always been the stoic defender against communism. I also said

me wrote:
Why does no one act?


This includes the UN, England, France, Ireland etc.

Why is Burma being ignored?

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 Post subject: Re: Burma
PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 7:07 pm 
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Crucifer wrote:
It would appear that every Buddhist monk in Burma was carted off to concentration camps during the week. Journalists are being hunted down by the Army, the police, and pro Junta vigilantes. (The first two will arrest you, the last will kill you).

Why does no one act?

Why does that "great advocate of freedom", that protector from communism, America, simply stand by and watch?

Why?

ETA: Cross posted with HoF.



Ya know... Oh great one. America although imho plays WAY to much the part of everyones big brother coming to the salvation of a country, it does have limits. I served in the Iraq war. Desert Storm and Shield. Good o'l Bush has us spread so thin through so many places that I don't even think we should be messing with.. that it's a joke.

America had a civil war. No country came over and stopped it.. North against South. We worked it out on our own. May piss a few people off.. but I think that's just how it's supposed to be. Iran/Iraq.. need to deal with there problems and we need to get out of them. Not OUR problem. Niether is this bitch you have about Burma.

Frankly I would like to see us (the usa) think about our own homeless and such, than try to solve every one elses problems.

America didn't have anything to do with what is happening to Burma.. so why blame it on us.. there is an entire world out there you can bitch at...

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 7:21 pm 
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OK. I'm going to try again.

Quote:
so why blame it on us


Firstly, I didn't. I pointed out that the US has always been opposed to Communism, and China is supporting the Junta government. The phrase

Quote:
Why does no one act?

includes everyone who has the power to act. The UN, the EU, France, England etc. The US just came to me as I was posting the thread.


Everyone. ASEAN, EU, UN, UK, USA. Every government that can but won't act is included in
Quote:
Why does no one act?


As to the civil war issues, what is going on in Burma is nothing more or less than Junta oppression, supported by China.

Every single Buddhist monk and nun was carted off to concentration camps. Every single one, from 17 year old novices to 97 year old elders.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 8:36 pm 
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Uh I haven't read the whole thread, but helping does not neccesarily mean always sending troops. Policy also matters too, heck even making an official statement saying that they are dissapointed with the Burmese government was all I was looking for.

About Afghanistan yes I was for it. I am against Iraq though. There is some times where we can't sit on our hands and do nothing and Afghanistan was one of them, Rwanda was too but big countries don't care about a nation of black people at war. Especially when they can get at the natural resources without aiding in any peace effort. (Can you tell I am still bitter?).

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 8:44 pm 
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Thank you Wilma. You're post has clarified what I wanted to say in my head.

It's not that "the US isn't invading and liberating Burma, so let's have some more bashing". It was never meant as such, and I'm sorry to all the people who took it that way.

It's that pretty much nobody is saying "look, what's going on here isn't right. We're going to have to do something about this."

I have no quarrel with the USA as a nation. None whatsoever. I've said it before that WW2 could not have been won by the allies without the US, but this is about Burma.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 8:56 pm 
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Oh about the Iran Iraq etc, I personally feel it is not about rescuing/ liberating anybody, it's all about the oil. If the mideast didn't have a drop of oil there would no interest in liberating anybody. Iran Iraq and many of those places do have their own problems (which it seems they refuse to deal with and just blame the US) and solving those problems would probably involve a whole ton of rebellions and civil wars. Also if these countries did figure out their own problems the U.S. would not have as tight a grip on the oil as they currently do.

On the Burma situation, I suggest people read Jyn's post on HOF, America seems to be doing much then Europe is, and I think on this point Europe is the one who should be making a statement or initiating some policy change. I think some people forget Europe is big player and they can do stuff too. (From the little I understand about Rwanda the French to say the least were the opposite of helpful and egged things on.)

But like I said in the bash the U.S. thread, the U.S is under the microscope and alot of countries are able to sweep terrible things under the rug. Since well no one is looking at them. Now about how the U.S got under that microscope that is for a different thread.

EDIT for clarity.

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Last edited by Wilma on Mon 15 Oct , 2007 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 9:01 pm 
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If it looks like a duck and acts like a duck. Alatar asked you to edit your initial post Crucifer.

Quote:
Why does that "great advocate of freedom", that protector from communism, America, simply stand by and watch?


Just so we are clear this is the part. Addressing the question to the entire world is one thing so just leave it at that don't single out a country you obviously dislike and expect me to sit by and watch. Thanks :)

Lego :)

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Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
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You're only sleeping


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct , 2007 9:09 pm 
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Yeah...not really seeing the American flaming attack in Crucifer's post, he's explained more than once now that it wasn't meant that way. I think we should get to the ACTUAL topic of Burma.

Yet I have nothing to add :P I think Burma sucks right now, I wish it to get better but I'm really a bit of an isolationist.

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