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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 28 Nov , 2007 5:00 pm
Not so deep as a well
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If you're talking about proving the metaphysical from the physical, perhaps. But one can certainly prove things within one sphere of thought starting with axioms from within that sphere, insofar as they can be reduced to logical or mathematical constructs/algorithms. One can prove quite readily that within a given frame of reference any number of physical laws hold true, by looking at what those laws predict and confirming empirically that the predictions are correct. One can prove with equal ease any number of logical propositions about the metaphysical nature of the universe, given agreed-upon axioms.

The trick is finding the right frame of reference, and the right axioms.

The difference is that in the physical world improvements in empirical observation can force changes in our understanding of the physical laws involved. That doesn't mean the law changed, only that our previous understanding was limited by our observational capability.

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democritus
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Posted: Wed 28 Nov , 2007 6:17 pm
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Crucifer wrote:
But nothing can be proven. Only explained...
This thread is about to get very uninteresting very quickly.


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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 28 Nov , 2007 8:14 pm
Not so deep as a well
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Oh, come on now, a little sophistry never hurt anyone. Well, not since Socrates. :D

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The Watcher
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Posted: Wed 28 Nov , 2007 8:42 pm
Same as it ever was
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my brain already hurts.....

wanders away to go read more charter stuff...


:blackeye: :blackeye: :blackeye:

Dealing with the non-real "what if" scenarios about most anything are far more interesting than dealing with the functionings of any group when it comes to trying to sort it all out and be objective and unbiased, that is all I will say about the matter for the moment.

:D

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Crucifer
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Posted: Wed 28 Nov , 2007 10:27 pm
A song outlasts a dynasty.
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I find the "Prove it" discussion fascinating...

But I can't prove that. For all you know, I might be pretending...

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Wed 28 Nov , 2007 11:53 pm
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There was an Atheist club somewhere that hosted as "smut for smut" booth on campus, where you could trade your religious texts for porn.

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Riverthalos
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 12:43 am
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
There was an Atheist club somewhere that hosted as "smut for smut" booth on campus, where you could trade your religious texts for porn.
I would call that inflammatory but for the certain Old Testament passages I got yelled at for reading when I was a kid.

Strangely enough, I never got in trouble for reading the adult versions of Greek myths. Maybe because my parents didn't recall (or even know) those stories so vividly.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 2:10 am
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I think "Smut for Smut" would be another excellent event that an Atheist Club could start. Maybe even Fantasy For Fantasy and have people hand in their old bibles for LotR copies or Discworld, etc.

Axioms are where you begin to try to prove something. I'm more of an absolute truths kind of thinker, so I think many things can be proven, not necessarily everything.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 2:25 am
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
I think "Smut for Smut" would be another excellent event that an Atheist Club could start. Maybe even Fantasy For Fantasy and have people hand in their old bibles for LotR copies or Discworld, etc.

Axioms are where you begin to try to prove something. I'm more of an absolute truths kind of thinker, so I think many things can be proven, not necessarily everything.
So this means you are signing up for the "ranger pool" here on B77? :D:D

Btw, TED, you are the first juror candidate on the list of pooled members...

I will be needing to pm you. :)

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Glaciers melting in the dead of night and the superstars sucked into the supermassive...
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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 7:23 am
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Can I institute a "Smut-For-Smut" policy during my rangerhoodishness.

Bring on the PM!

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Crucifer
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 4:27 pm
A song outlasts a dynasty.
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The one absolute truth is that there are no absolute truths...

I think...

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 12:48 am
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That is boring. Zzzzzzzzz.

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jadeval
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Posted: Sun 02 Dec , 2007 9:47 pm
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"There ain't no answer. There ain't gonna be any answer. There never has been an answer. That's the answer." -Gertrude Stein

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vison
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Posted: Sun 02 Dec , 2007 10:18 pm
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jadeval wrote:
"There ain't no answer. There ain't gonna be any answer. There never has been an answer. That's the answer." -Gertrude Stein
But she was sorta sure about roses, as I recall.

There aren't many questions you can't answer with a rose.

Just sayin'. :D

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jadeval
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Posted: Fri 07 Dec , 2007 12:13 am
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Crucifer wrote:
Well then. They'd have lots of experimenting to do. Every time someone comes up with evidence that there is a God, they'd have to disprove it, for a start. Then they could get back to proving that there is no God.

By the way, it is impossible to prove anything... you always have to take something as a given, somewhere, and that's cheating. It is impossible, for example, to prove that 1+1=2 without taking as given somewhere along the line that 1+1=2...
Theorem: 1 + 1 = 2

Proof (using plus operator as graphical combination):
.
.
..

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jadeval
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Posted: Fri 07 Dec , 2007 12:14 am
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Theorem: 4*3 = 3*4

Proof:
....
....
....

...
...
...
...

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 07 Dec , 2007 12:23 am
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Nicely done, jad.

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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 07 Dec , 2007 12:30 am
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What she said. :D


That's a position I've heard a lot over the years ("You can't prove 2*2=4" or whatever) and it really bugs me because it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what match actually is.


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jadeval
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Posted: Fri 07 Dec , 2007 12:43 am
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yes, well, I think if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, it depends on your philosophy of mathematics. If all mathematics is one big tautology (Wittgenstein) then our notion of "proof" might be modified a bit. In a way, 1 + 1 = 2 is a rational tautology:

I see one chair here, and another chair there... how many chairs are there? There is one chair and one chair. What is that? It is these TWO chairs.

In contrast, Einstein's theory of relativity is synthetic rather than analytic, to use Kantian terms.

Scientific proof is real, though not absolute. Mathematical proof is absolute, though perhaps not real. :) An absolute proof, if logically irrefutable, may not be a demonstration of anything at all because irrefutability may rest on strictly tautological grounds... in which case proof is, by its very nature, never absolute.

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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 07 Dec , 2007 11:14 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Perhaps an atheist club should have an evening discussing what is appropriate for them to exclaim during orgasm.

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