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Use of deadly force to protect property

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Use of deadly force to protect property
Posted: Sat 08 Dec , 2007 6:05 pm
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Ranger’s note:

This thread was split off from the Emotional Calluses thread.

tinwë



How dare he enforce the law! The nerve of that guy, daring to protect his neighbors! Doesn't he know that only cops are allowed to kill in the enforcement of the law?

As I watch the plethora of YouTube Taser videos, it is obvious that cops think killing to enforce respect for the law is acceptable, but this guy isn't one of the elite brave cops tasering helpless drivers at the side of the road. He actually confronted an actual criminal, he actually tried to use the government's system of calling 911, and then when it turns out government doesn't work he actually stopped a criminal all by himself.

His real crime is showing how high quality the government's law enforcement is. That is surely deserving of severe punishment. Thou Shalt Not Make Fools Of Government Officials. For protecting his neighbor's home when the police were incapable he is surely a criminal.

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Pippin4242
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Posted: Sat 08 Dec , 2007 7:47 pm
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Get off your high horse. He killed two human beings.

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yovargas
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
How dare he enforce the law! The nerve of that guy, daring to protect his neighbors! Doesn't he know that only cops are allowed to kill in the enforcement of the law?

As I watch the plethora of YouTube Taser videos, it is obvious that cops think killing to enforce respect for the law is acceptable, but this guy isn't one of the elite brave cops tasering helpless drivers at the side of the road. He actually confronted an actual criminal, he actually tried to use the government's system of calling 911, and then when it turns out government doesn't work he actually stopped a criminal all by himself.

His real crime is showing how high quality the government's law enforcement is. That is surely deserving of severe punishment. Thou Shalt Not Make Fools Of Government Officials. For protecting his neighbor's home when the police were incapable he is surely a criminal.
MariaHobbit wrote:
Burglary is not a capital crime.
You might want to respond to what Maria actually said, CG.
More importantly, you might want to stop and think if there is something wrong with your ideology being more important to you than human life.


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Meril36
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Posted: Sat 08 Dec , 2007 8:20 pm
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I think that man is a hero.

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yovargas
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Posted: Sat 08 Dec , 2007 8:25 pm
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Killers aren't heroes.


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Meril36
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Posted: Sat 08 Dec , 2007 8:27 pm
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But sometimes heroes have to kill.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Sat 08 Dec , 2007 8:51 pm
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Pippin4242 wrote:
Get off your high horse. He killed two human beings.
Yeah, how dare he act like a cop!
yovargas wrote:
More importantly, you might want to stop and think if there is something wrong with your ideology being more important to you than human life.
Do you know how many people applaud killing, if it is done by the book? If a police officer had done exactly what this guy did, nobody would be condemning the officer. By the way, according to the news reports, this guy warned the burglars before he shot them.

Do you know why everyone is so aghast right now? It's not that he killed two burglars. There are two reasons people are so offended by this case.

1. He actually used a gun to do it. If he had killed them by any other means how many people here would be so viciously attacking him? You wouldn't. The police statists would, because of the second reason.
2. The police were called but failed to respond. He had to do the job of the police. He did do the job of the police. It is a fact that if you call 911 and say "there is a burglar in my house" they will eventually show up, but if you call 911 and say "there is a burglar in my house and I have a gun and might need to use it to defend myself" they will show up immediately.

Ideology more important than human life? Talk to those who kill millions. If I think this guy isn't a criminal because he killed two criminals, talk to the politicians who love to throw away life because it makes them look tough. Talk to the police who are trigger happy on the tasers whenever someone doesn't show proper obeisance and fail to kiss master's boots. THEIRS is an ideology that denigrates human life.
yovargas wrote:
Killers aren't heroes.
Including those who kill in the line of duty, say, with a taser by the side of the road.

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Pippin4242
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Posted: Sat 08 Dec , 2007 9:18 pm
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
Pippin4242 wrote:
Get off your high horse. He killed two human beings.
Yeah, how dare he act like a cop!
You forget, I come from a country where murder in the name of the law is not considered... civilized.

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yovargas
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Posted: Sat 08 Dec , 2007 9:21 pm
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Quote:
Do you know why everyone is so aghast right now?
Yes, Maria told us why she was aghast. Did you actually listen to her?


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Lidless
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Posted: Sat 08 Dec , 2007 9:27 pm
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
How dare he enforce the law!
*tries to find statute where burglary is a capital offense*

Before we go any further, please let's deal with this irrititating idea. The use of deadly force in Texas is governed by Chapter 2, Section 9 of the Texas Penal Code. CG, as you normally insist on people arguing against you to 'go fetch' evidence rather than you having to do it for your own side, now it's your turn. Please cite the relevant part of it was he enforcing when he shot them.

His only defense in my view is if he can convince a jury once he got outside everything changed and he was threatened, rushed, etc. and had to kill both men. The tape makes that a difficult sell, particularly the, "I'm gonna kill 'em" on the phone to the cops before he did.

Likewise, I believe the tape shows he had neither agreed to be responsible for this property nor did he owe a specific duty to the property to look after their property, as the Texas statute would require for him to use this defense:

(2) the actor reasonably believes that:

(A) the third person has requested his protection of the land or property;
(B) he has a legal duty to protect the third person’s land or property; or
(C) the third person whose land or property he uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor’s spouse, parent, or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor’s care.


It's people who think this guy is a hero that scare me out.

It's incidences like this and people who support such actions, that give me all the evidence I need that when such people talk about the Second Amendment meaning they can have guns in their house or walking the street, they have no idea of the real sense of responsibility, self-discipline and forgiveness that entails.

"He done me wrong, sh'ff. I hadda put him down fer good. Right b'tween them shoulder blades. I guess he won't be russl'n ma cattle no more."

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Jonny
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Posted: Sat 08 Dec , 2007 10:32 pm
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Quote:
1. He actually used a gun to do it. If he had killed them by any other means how many people here would be so viciously attacking him? You wouldn't. The police statists would, because of the second reason.
Mm... I think the reaction would be the same whether or not they were shot, stabbed, or ripped to threads with a wheat thresher.

The issue is that he killed them, not how he killed them.

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jadeval
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Posted: Sun 09 Dec , 2007 12:14 am
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There is a reason why guns are, for the most part, harmful and dangerous, especially in the hands of ordinary people (as opposed to trained law enforcement). By their very nature, they have a tendency to magnify peoples' sense of reckless violence to a point which exceeds all the necessary proportions of most realistic situations.

The man was not a police officer, not trained or legally sanctioned as one, and so cannot be compared as such. It depends on the situation, but he was likely a reckless, testosterone-induced, gun-wielding egomaniac acting out of his own suppressed sense of primitive, territorial masculinity. Most of them are. We cannot afford to be a nation where just anyone can get off the hook for killing without really knowing what they're shooting at.

I love generalizing. :)

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Legolas the elf
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Posted: Sun 09 Dec , 2007 5:18 am
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I just watched the movie "Shooter" with Mark Walberg. It's about a sniper, lots of killing, conspiracy, and, for me, brought up the philosophical/moral question of "can killing be heroic?" Killing in itself is bad, but under certain circumstances, ya know...sometimes ya just gotta pull the trigger.

I like Ghandi and the whole non-violent resistance thing. Yovargas, reading you're "killers are not heroes" quote made me think of Ghandi. If you have never read any of his writings on non-violence, you should. I think you'd like it.

"Shooter" made me realize there are no "sides" in this global age...there's only Power... the haves and have nots. Which, for me, makes things complicated. (I guess, in a way, the human world has always been like this.)

Mariahobbit, "Shooter" also made me realize that Americans in general tend to not realize how cheaply life can be spent, and is, spent in this world. The human condition is one of certain death. And also a condition where we have, ultimately, no control over death. We tend to think that laws and courts are the answer. THis movie made me realize that's bullshit. And that's why I like Ghandi's prepared-to-die-non-violently-in-the-face-of-violence in hopes that it will change/inspire, or do something inside people witnessing it, seems to me to be the most effective way to combat greed and wickedness in the long run, than trying to "control" the wickedness and greed (jails, laws, etc.). It's really out of our hands, and laws don't make any changes at depth, ie in the hearts of people. They only give the corrupt a chance to "work outside the box." I don't think it's good in the long run to avoid, or ignore violence and death and murder. After all, it is a part of our reality. We must deal with it. At the same, time, I don't think being tuned-in all the time is good, either.

"Guns can't kill human greed and wickedness." -- from "Shooter".

Everyone in this thread should watch that flick. :)

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Sun 09 Dec , 2007 5:52 am
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Lidless wrote:
Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
How dare he enforce the law!
*tries to find statute where burglary is a capital offense*
*tries to find statute where asking a cop what you were pulled over for is a capital offense*

When we discussed earlier a guy who killed an obviously violent home invader in his own home, in a previous thread, people there were screaming that defense of home isn't worth killing over. The best solution is to wait for the person to kill you and hope the cops arrive before he does kill you.

Here's a question for everyone else - did the guy in the current thread warn the burglars before he killed them?

What he did was enforce the law, and only cops are allowed to do that.
Jonny wrote:
Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
1. He actually used a gun to do it. If he had killed them by any other means how many people here would be so viciously attacking him? You wouldn't. The police statists would, because of the second reason.
2. The police were called but failed to respond. He had to do the job of the police. He did do the job of the police. It is a fact that if you call 911 and say "there is a burglar in my house" they will eventually show up, but if you call 911 and say "there is a burglar in my house and I have a gun and might need to use it to defend myself" they will show up immediately.
Mm... I think the reaction would be the same whether or not they were shot, stabbed, or ripped to threads with a wheat thresher.

The issue is that he killed them, not how he killed them.
Yeah, number 2, like I wrote.
jadeval wrote:
There is a reason why guns are, for the most part, harmful and dangerous, especially in the hands of ordinary people (as opposed to trained law enforcement).
And there is a reason why guns are even more harmful and dangerous in the hands of trained law enforcement (as opposed to ordinary people). By their very nature, they have a tendency to magnify peoples' sense of reckless violence to a point which exceeds all the necessary proportions of most realistic situations.
jadeval wrote:
The man was not a police officer, not trained or legally sanctioned as one, and so cannot be compared as such.
After all, unlike police officers, he did their job.
jadeval wrote:
It depends on the situation, but he was likely a reckless, testosterone-induced, gun-wielding egomaniac acting out of his own suppressed sense of primitive, territorial masculinity. Most of them are. We cannot afford to be a nation where just anyone can get off the hook for killing without really knowing what they're shooting at.
Of course the only reason people defend their neighbors is what you described above.

What you wrote, as opposed to what you intended to write, sounds a lot more like a police academy cadet.

And I reiterate - the real reason everyone is upset by this case is that he did the job of the police when the police weren't doing the job of the police.

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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RELStuart
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Posted: Sun 09 Dec , 2007 6:14 am
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I really enjoyed that movie (Shooter).

If this guy went out of his dwelling to shoot these guys then he went to far. (I've just read what was here in this thread of the event). If they were shot in the dwelling then he was probably justified in at least a legal sense. I believe that in my class on community relations the police officer that taught the class mentioned that many or perhaps even a majority of murders and rapes take place during the commission of a burglary where neither rape not murder was planned. It is for this reason that historically and from the common law that it is appropriate to use lethal force to stop criminals that break into your dwelling.

If this guy could have stood back and let these guys walk with no danger to himself or family I probably would have done so if I had been in his shoes. If he went out after them and shot them outside the dwelling he will probably have difficulty demonstrating that was appropriate.

Burglary is not a capital crime it is true. In my state and TX though if someone breaks into your house by law it is appropriate to respond to that invasion with deadly force. I believe this is common in most if not all states in the US but I have not researched that. I do know this came over from the old English common law that dates back back from before our nation was created.


Being a killer does not make one a hero. Nor does being a hero require killing. However, they are not irreconcilable either.


Owning a gun without being a police officer or soldier does not make one some sort of neandrathalic testosterone driven moron. What you do with what you have makes you who you are.



I haven't followed the news that closely either of late. It's just to depressing or trying to make a big deal of someones tragedy.



CG, what do you think of Ron Paul? (Edit: Never mind. I see you posted thread on him. I've heard good things.)

Last edited by RELStuart on Sun 09 Dec , 2007 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Legolas the elf
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Posted: Sun 09 Dec , 2007 6:27 am
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Quote:
If this guy could have stood back and let these guys walk with no danger to himself or family I probably would have done so if I had been in his shoes. If he went out after them and shot them outside the dwelling he will probably have difficulty demonstrating that was appropriate.
Yup.


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Riverthalos
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Posted: Sun 09 Dec , 2007 6:40 am
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Okay, let me get this straight...

Guy sees people breaking into neighbor's house. Guy calls 911. While on the phone with 911 he shoots the burglars robbing his neighbor's house. Not his house. His neighbor's house. The shots are heard on tape, which has upset MH because she doesn't like hearing people get killed on the radio (I don't blame her...there's a reason I haven't tried to track down the recording). Somehow, this is the fault of the police?

Have you ever heard of response times? Seriously. 911 gets the info from the caller and then tones out the call. Whoever is closest and available hits their lights and sirens and makes a run for the location of the call. At that point, it is not a question of willingness. It's a question of man power and how to best utilize it. I'm sure the local cops would have been plenty willing to arrest the burglars. Whether they could get there in time is another story but that has more to do with hyper-extended, under-funded public services than anything else.

Honestly, I'm if anything more horrified at the killings that don't involve guns. A gun is a long range weapon. You don't have to get close to shoot someone. But you do to stab them. Or beat them to death. Or use a wheat thresher. Or a piano wire. Or a ball point pen. You have to get nice, up close and personal. It's a bit more intense, I think.

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Lurker
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When I read this thread for the first time, I thought he was defending his home. (It's late and I'm really cranky, stupid kids and their loud cars. :P) He shot the burglars from his vantage point then. My problem with this is, he is not the one being threatened in the first place, why shoot them?

Yes, he was defending his neighbor but he could have defended his neighbour without killing. He could have fired a warning shot, that he actually saw them or he could have called his neighbor after calling 911 to let them know to stay put and lock their bedroom door until the police arrives. He could have incapacitated them, like a shot on the leg. Lot's of stuff he could have done without resorting to killing two people.

I don't know how he will justify that the burglars threatening his neighbors indirectly threatens him as well. The burglars didn't see him nor they fired a shot at him. In fact, IMHO, they were defenseless againts him. I don't usually side with the burglars in this case since I've been a victim of a violent home invasion myself but what he did is wrong. In fact, if he shot them in the back it is not self defense at all, it's a cowardly act esp. if they are only armed with a knife. The fact is, it's not in his property. I would love to be the attorney for the burglars' families in this case. Yes, the burglars have "human rights", too, believe it or not. :P

I laugh when people say that they are trying to protect themselves by having more guns than people in their household. Sure, they can be like Rambo and start shooting with both hands defending themselves.

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Lidless
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Posted: Sun 09 Dec , 2007 12:37 pm
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
Lidless wrote:
Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
How dare he enforce the law!
*tries to find statute where burglary is a capital offense*
*tries to find statute where asking a cop what you were pulled over for is a capital offense*
OK, I'll take it from that that you can't. As expected. I'm no lawyer, but I doubt the guy's defense will be using your argument in court.
Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
And I reiterate - the real reason everyone is upset by this case is that he did the job of the police when the police weren't doing the job of the police.
Hmm, people taking the law into their own hands and killing burglars at their neighbor's house. Yeah, I've a problem with that. Castle Doctrine is one thing - your neighbor's house is completely different. And as the transcript below shows, Joe Horn didn't understand the difference.

It is weird to think I'm posting with someone who seems to think then that I can go and kill Dick Cheney, doing the job of the police / Justice department because they aren't doing their job.

Joe Horn, 61, told the dispatcher what he intended to do: Walk out his front door with a shotgun.

"I've got a shotgun," Horn said, according to a tape of the 911 call. "Do you want me to stop them?"

"Nope, don't do that - ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?" the dispatcher responded.

"Hurry up man, catch these guys, will you? 'Cause I'm ain't gonna let 'em go, I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm not gonna let 'em go. I'm not gonna let 'em get away with this --."

Shortly after, Horn said he sees one suspect was standing in front of his house, looking at it from the street.

"I don't know if they're armed or not. I know they got a crowbar 'cause that's what they broke the windows with. ... Man, this is scary, I can't believe this is happening in this neighborhood."

He gets more agitated. The dispatcher asks if he can see the suspects but they had retreated into the target's house, out of view: "I can go out the front [to look], but if I go out the front I'm bringing my shotgun with me, I swear to God. I am not gonna let 'em get away with this, I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK? I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot."

"Stay inside the house and don't go out there, OK?" the dispatcher said. "I know you're pissed off, I know what you're feeling, but it's not worth shooting somebody over this, OK?"

"I don't want to," Horn said, "but I mean if I go out there, you know, to see what the hell is going on, what choice am I gonna have?

"No, I don't want you to go out there, I just asked if you could see anything out there."

The dispatcher asks if a vehicle could be seen; Horn said no. The dispatcher again says Horn should stay inside the house.

Almost five minutes into the call, police had not arrived.

"I can't see if [the suspects are] getting away or not," Horn said.

Horn told the dispatcher that he doesn't know the neighbors well, unlike those living on the other side of his home. "I can assure you if it had been their house, I would have already done something, because I know them very well," he said.

Dispatcher: "I want you to listen to me carefully, OK?"

Horn: "Yes?"

Dispatcher: "I got ultras coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house. And I don't want you to have that gun in your hand when those officers are poking around out there."

Horn: "I understand that, OK, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir, and you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the First and you know it and I know it."

Dispatcher: "I understand."

Horn: "I have a right to protect myself ..."

Dispatcher: "I'm ..."

Horn: "And a shotgun is a legal weapon, it's not an illegal weapon."

Dispatcher: "No, it's not, I'm not saying that, I'm just not wanting you to ..."

Horn: "OK, he's coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window. "

Dispatcher: "No, don't, don't go out the door, Mister Horn. Mister Horn..."

Horn: "They just stole something, I'm going out to look for 'em, I'm sorry, I ain't letting them get away with this --. They stole something, they got a bag of stuff. I'm doing it!"

Dispatcher: "Mister, do not go outside the house."

Horn: "I'm sorry, this ain't right, buddy."

Dispatcher: "You gonna get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don't care what you think."

Horn: "You wanna make a bet?"

Dispatcher: "Stay in the house."

Horn: "There, one of them's getting away!

Dispatcher: "That's alright, property's not something worth killing someone over. OK? Don't go out the house, don't be shooting nobody. I know you're pissed and you're frustrated but don't do it."

Horn: "They got a bag of loot."

Dispatcher: "OK. How big is the bag?" He then talks off, relaying the information.

Dispatcher: "Which way are they going?"

Horn: "I can't ... I'm going outside. I'll find out."

Dispatcher: "I don't want you going outside, Mister..."

Horn: "Well, here it goes buddy, you hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."

Dispatcher: "Don't go outside."

On the tape of the 911 call, the shotgun can be heard being cocked and Horn can be heard going outside and confronting someone.

"Boom! You're dead!" he shouts. A loud bang is heard, then a shotgun being cocked and fired again, and then again.

Then Horn is back on the phone:

"Get the law over here quick. I've now, get, one of them's in the front yard over there, he's down, he almost run down the street. I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice! ... Get somebody over here quick, man."

Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, are you out there right now?"

Horn: "No, I am inside the house, I went back in the house. Man, they come right in my yard, I didn't know what the -- they was gonna do, I shot 'em, OK?"

Dispatcher: "Did you shoot somebody?

Horn: "Yes, I did, the cops are here right now."

Dispatcher: "Where are you right now?"

Horn: "I'm inside the house. ..."

Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, put that gun down before you shoot an officer of mine. I've got several officers out there without uniforms on."

Horn: "I am in the front yard right now. I am ..."

Dispatcher: "Put that gun down! There's officers out there without uniforms on. Do not shoot anybody else, do you understand me? I've got police out there..."

Horn: "I understand, I understand. I am out in the front yard waving my hand right now."

Dispatcher: "You don't have a gun with you, do you?

Horn: "No, no, no."

Dispatcher: "You see a uniformed officer? Now lay down on the ground and don't do nothing else."

Yelling is heard.

Dispatcher: "Lay down on the ground, Mister Horn. Do what the officers tell you to do right now."



Yeah, a real hero. :roll:

Last edited by Lidless on Sun 09 Dec , 2007 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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yovargas
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Posted: Sun 09 Dec , 2007 1:48 pm
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I feel comfortable calling that murder.

Mostly I'm annoyed that CG took a thread about the sadness of tragedies and decided to turn it into a pro-gun thread.


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