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Friends who try to fix everyone's life

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jadeval
Post subject: Friends who try to fix everyone's life
Posted: Tue 18 Dec , 2007 7:28 am
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Ok, not that this comes out of a personal situation that I'm currently experiencing or anything, but has anyone had a friend who, for whatever reason, seems to think that someone died and made him/her your psychoanalyst?

I mean: a friend or rather acquaintance who thinks they know so much about you that their every piece of advice is worth a careful and "sincere" giving and taking between the two of you? (without even so much as the half-facetious playfulness that usually lends advice between friends its tolerability?) Someone who considers it his/her business to help others around them "fix" their lives? I take issue with that! No, let me be more reasonable: I take issue with people who actively seek to probe into the nature of my problems and offer solutions when I do not seek to do the same for them in return! It seems to me that a friend cannot help another friend with a problem unless the help is mutual in some way or another--even if the mutual "help" is only a learning-process by which the advice-giver comes to realize the half-truths and half-falsities of his or her advice. Personal problems always have a way of resolving themselves so that the "one in need" is revealed as "one full of surprises." But when the surprises come, who can say they knew the one to begin with? A person can never be a true psychoanalyst to another person (unless for officially arranged purposes between a consenting patient and "doctor").

Can you really presume to know someone else better than they know themselves? Can you know what's best for them better than they do for themselves? Ultimately, I do not believe so. I believe you can offer advice, but that advice is always subject to the ignorance of the one giving it (and so must be recognized as such: i.e. fallible). Practically, it may end up "helping" the other. But this "help" does not constitute actual knowledge of the other. It does not constitute a real moral "imperative" whose judgment is verified or deemed "true" simply on account of the fact that some kind of pain or suffering is avoided. The "truth" of the advice is only known after the fact because its "truth" hinges on the action of the one to which it is directed (his action in relation to it). This is because there is quite simply and clearly no imperative to act according to advice given, and it only becomes a true imperative after one has accepted it as such. Then again, the person who becomes what he is (and how can this be possible!?) through this process is somehow different though the same, and his newly constituted reality refuses the "truth" of a knowledge which assumed his old self as a starting point. The "true" advice thus is never true at any point: it is only postulated as true at first, and then becomes inapplicable afterward. There is thus no "knowledge of the other" at any point because there is no truth of what is expressed at any point. There seems only to be "reasonable" or "affable" actions and reactions. There aren't even real "reasons" to this "reasonableness" because, in the final analysis, everything is instincts guiding instincts.

How do you know when someone's advice is worth considering? Sometimes friends are in it out of their own carelessness or unresolved personal issues.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Tue 18 Dec , 2007 2:50 pm
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There are 16 different personality types. At least two of them are extremely driven to help others become either happier or better people (Or else they transfer these urges to animals) . They can't help it, it's their primary function. Fortunately for you (I guess) those types are very rare in RL, although they abound on Tolkien messageboards for some reason...

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jadeval
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Posted: Tue 18 Dec , 2007 7:44 pm
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Those types need to get a clue then... and learn that they are intrinsically annoying. :neutral:

I'm an architect: INTP. That means buck off to those ESFJs or whatever. ;) I mean seriously, if someone is not an abstract thinker (S), is all touchy-feely all the time (F), always into others' business instead of their own (E) and, on top of all that, always judging everyone (J), then they need therapy to deal with themselves. I mean, there is just no way such a person is every going to understand me: I don't like animals, I don't like plants, I don't even like people that much. People are annoying and they need to go away. I don't even like food that much since I don't cook. I like to read philosophy and study weird things. I like steel and glass buildings, big cities, electronic music, and anything else that defies nature and sentimentality. If I like nature at all, it is this picture to the left: desert. That's right, nature is at its best when it is barren. Even then it is complemented by a road.

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Lord_Morningstar
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Posted: Wed 19 Dec , 2007 11:47 am
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Not to mention that some people's lives just need fixing ;).

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 19 Dec , 2007 1:24 pm
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The irony of asking those people who want you to change when you don't want to, to change, is worth a :cheers: . ;)

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jadeval
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Posted: Wed 19 Dec , 2007 7:57 pm
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I'm not asking them to change... I've admitted that personality types are fixed and that such people are simply hopeless pieces of fate (so to speak ;) ). I'm simply asking for my right as a human being NOT to be annoyed all the time by others' presumptuous interferences.

It's analogous to the homophobic issue: we don't argue that pro-gay rights people are just being hypocritical when they demand that homophobic people "change" in order to give gay people their civil rights.

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 19 Dec , 2007 8:29 pm
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True-you didn't mention change outright, but you did suggest therapy for them, which one hopes as a rule isn't a waste of time and money. :)

I recall years ago having a friend for whom the possibility of an intervention (for his drinking) was raised more than once among the circle I traveled in at the time. It hadn't happened by the time I move on, and I kind of hope it never did--apart from satisfying the urge of a couple of drama queens in the group it wouldn't have done much beyond wasting time and annoying the pig, as it were.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Wed 19 Dec , 2007 9:00 pm
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I don't find ESFJs annoying. They are friendly, harmless sorts, in a mundane sort of way. I have one for a mother in law, and she's OK.

I was talking about INFPs and INFJs who are compulsive about helping people, creatures or causes. All the Idealists are, really. They have an ideal in their head about how something (or someone) ought to be, and they don't rest until either that ideal is acheived, or they drop that cause and take up a new, shiny one.

I'm an Idealist, btw...

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jadeval
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Posted: Thu 20 Dec , 2007 12:32 am
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I guess this person could be an INFJ... definitely a judger, which is very annoying... always wanting to come to some sort of conclusion about things when in actuality the world is entirely too complex. I am constantly reminding this person and arguing with him about that fact that he doesn't have all the information and that things are subject to interpretation. He then accuses me of nihilistic relativism because he does not see the obvious distinction between fact and meaning/interpretation which I am making. He wants to solve all kinds of problems: political, personal, societal... but his viewpoints on all these issues are clearly arguable at best and outright ideologies at worst. I keep telling him: just chill and learn to realize that the differences between people are there to be accepted rather than actually reconciled... but noooo!

Gandhi was an INFP (or INFJ?) I think... we tend to think Gandhi did some good, but what do we know? Maybe he was just spreading an ideology because it was in his nature to enforce it on people. Sure, it was peaceful, but who said peace was always good? Just because it's pleasant...

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Riverthalos
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Posted: Thu 20 Dec , 2007 3:51 am
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I don't take unsolicited advice or opinions. If I want either, I ask and listen. Otherwise, I ignore or, if they're being especially obnoxious and in my face (and my threshold is high), I break out the colorful language. Eventually, my would-be adviser gets the memo.

Interesting. I've never met anyone who was opposed to Ghandi.

"Judging" does not immediately equate with "judgmental". It can, but it doesn't - I'd just assume live and let live myself. Moreover, while the world is a very complex place, there are certain patterns within the chaos that can be used to draw conclusions and make predictions. Finally, I caution you and everyone else with regards to pigeon-holing people based on the MBTI. It's useful up to a point, but there's a continuum and people who hang out in the middle aren't going to fit into the box you want to put them in. Even people who are very definitely one type over another can act counter to their type. I hang out right on the boundary for N/S and T/F - where I land depends on the type of day I'm having and the kind of work I've been doing. I call myself an INTJ because that generally fits me better but I can and will act contrary to that type in every category (although pretending to be an extrovert is very very draining for me). I'm especially prone to doing that if someone who hasn't earned the right is trying to get into my head or if I feel like I've been pigeon-holed. I really don't like that. Analyst wannabe's deserve every curveball I can throw them, especially if they think they're being sneaky about it.

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vison
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Posted: Thu 20 Dec , 2007 4:15 am
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There are times when I know, sadly enough, that I am a "fixer". I hope I've learned to stop doing it.

But you know, when someone says, "What should I do? :( ", I sorta think, "Maybe she really wants to know?"

But they never do.

Nope.

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 20 Dec , 2007 2:29 pm
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Quote:
But you know, when someone says, "What should I do?", I sorta think, "Maybe she really wants to know?"
Some do, some don't. Nowadays I find myself only offering "serious" advice to people whom I know really want it, and only when they ask for it. That's a short, short list of friends and family. Otherwise they get knowing yet noncommittal nods and, if appropriate, hugs--until I get tired of going through those motions. :neutral:

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jadeval
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Posted: Thu 20 Dec , 2007 8:07 pm
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What about my statement that it is impossible for anyone to truly know what is best for someone else?

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 20 Dec , 2007 8:12 pm
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Very possibly true. But if we were to restrict our comments, observations, advice et al to that which we truly know, the worldwide silence that resulted would make for some pretty boring parties. ;)

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jadeval
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Posted: Thu 20 Dec , 2007 8:14 pm
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fair enough i suppose. But all too often, it seems that people slip into thinking that they really do know.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Thu 20 Dec , 2007 8:20 pm
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There are doubtless many situations I know much more about than you, and vice versa. It would be selfish of me to withhold pertinent information.

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 20 Dec , 2007 8:31 pm
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I think there's a difference in attitude that perhaps jadeval is alluding to, more than content. But even pertinence of raw information is variable. As an analogy, if I were about to go on a trip to Yellowstone and someone told me how to get good hotel rooms in the park even in peak season, that would probably be quite useful--unless I'm camping.

Just so, I may have gone through some life experiences which, on the surface, appear similar enough to something a friend is going through to encourage me to offer advice to them. But if they're thinking "tent" while I'm thinking "hotel" little good can come of it.

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jadeval
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Posted: Thu 20 Dec , 2007 10:08 pm
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Yes, I see it as a matter of attitude or interpretation of information rather than information itself. And Axordil is onto something. But the point must be put more finely than either he or I have put it yet. I would put it as follows: not only differing interpretation, and not only differing information, but differing information as interpretation, for there is a sense in which information and interpretation are NOT disentanglable.

An example from an actual conversation between me and this person... He tried to make the analogy to different people watching a scene from a film without any of us having seen the entire film. Suppose there is a woman carrying a green purse in that scene. According to him, we all see the green purse and agree that we see the green purse. This was his way of saying "see? there is an objective reality upon which we can agree and therefore my advice to you is not purely relative, despite the fact that I don't know all the information (just as I haven't seen all the film)."

Obviously his analogy was flawed, and my reply was along these lines: we are not arguing over whether there's a lady with a green purse. We are arguing over the interpretation or meaning of that scene in relation to entire film (despite the fact that we haven't seen the entire film). Suppose she hits a man with that purse. We haven't seen the rest of the film, so he might proclaim her action immoral while I might say otherwise. The meaning or ethical status of the situation is not clear. One way of putting it is that what is the case (fact) is distinct from what ought or should be the case (ethically).

The green purse is a fairly well-established fact (or, at least for all intents and purposes, we can consider it a fact). So is it that she hits the man. But there are other "pieces of information" that are not so clear. These we might call "interpretative data" or something. Maybe they are not facts, but maybe they are constitutive elements of our human existence which are not entirely distinguishable from moral judgments. And then perhaps there is "pure attitude": the willingness or unwillingness to acknowledge the instrinsic potential for fallibility of the "interpretative data/information" which you have compiled in support of your case (your advice to another regarding their situation).

We have:
-data/facts/information
-interpretative data/facts/information
-pure attitude (reflexive attitude in relation to one's interpretation)

The problem I have is with those whose "pure attitude" is such that they do not acknowledge the potential incompleteness or fallibility of their perspective (interpreted data). Everything is too straightforward to these people. This I do not consider to be necessarily tied to personality types. When one has the ability to acknowledge such potential for fallibility, one's advice naturally takes a more inquisitive tone (as opposed to a tone of declaration). A polite person says not "I think you need to do such and such... because I've thought about it and you just need to realize it" but rather inquires: "So tell me about such and such, for I do not fully understand why you think this way." The latter method is guided by inquiries and indirectness. It is therefore more true to the actuality of our intrinsically interpretative situation as human beings.

Technically, I see the first two (facts and interpretation) as NOT disentanglable. But I think there is a spectrum here, and that we can practically distinguish the two most of the time. Ethics must be somehow tied up with interpretation because what one thinks we should do (how one's advice will take shape in relation to another) depends on how one sees things. Interpretation affects action or recommendation to action (and morality concerns actions).

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Lidless
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Posted: Wed 26 Dec , 2007 3:37 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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jadeval,

You seem to have a major hangup about this. PM me if you want me to help.

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Sunsilver
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Posted: Wed 26 Dec , 2007 5:21 pm
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Obviously someone who needs to watch the film, "Eye of the Beholder", which shows a sequence of events from the viewpoints of different characters involved in the events.

Edit: darn, that's NOT the right title! Anyway, it was standard viewing in college level "Interpersonal Relationship" courses. The person's perception not only influenced their interpretation of the events, but also how they SAW the other people they interacted with. For instance, the taxi driver saw the protagonist as a shady, criminal type, and 'saw' him dressed accordingly. The protagonist's mother, needless to say, saw her son differently.

If anyone can give me the title to this film, I'd be most grateful...

Last edited by Sunsilver on Thu 27 Dec , 2007 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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