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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:

Feredir wonders why our profound distrust of police, why we see them as little better than the criminals they combat.

I certainly do NOT see the police in this way. I have never had any experience that would make me feel this way. And I lived and worked in the inner city for more than a decade.

I have seen dedicated police officers, who work with children and young people. I have seen police officers be respectful and courteous when being spat upon and cursed at. I have seen police officers defuse situations that could easily become violent. I have seen police officers diligently working with community in order to make the city a better, safer place.

I have also come across mediocre officers who do the bare minimum and officers who just plain aren't that bright. I have come across officers who abuse their power and who think they are above the law.

But those have been in the minority. By far.

In NO way do I think police officers, as a whole are "little better than the criminals they combat."

In fact, I think such a statement is terribly inflammatory and smacks of stereotyping. What experiences have you had to back up such a broad-based statement?

I think most of us understand your position, C_G. I just think you're out there.

You say the police should decide on an individual basis whether or not to enforce laws. So it would be okay for an officer to say, "Nahhh, I like this guy. I can see the blood dripping from his hands, knife still in his grip, kneeling over his dead wife, but he and I go way back, and I don't think I'll enforce the law in this case."

But you are talking about laws like medical marijuana use. Wow. What an important law! Just a hop, skip, and a jump from there to rounding up Jews and putting them in concentration camps.

You know my feelings for medical marijuana use aside (because they truly are irrelevant), it is not up to the police to pick and choose which laws to enforce. Sure, maybe in some theoretical instance where the population goes crazy and decides to imprison all people with red hair, it would be great for police officers to look the other way. But, in general, no individual should have that power. Who's to say that their view of the law is right?

I guess the determining factor is that we don't live in a dictatorship where those kinds of individual matters of conscience are the only way justice can be done. (I'm thinking Nazi Germany, for example.) Yes, I agree that the government has overstepped its bounds in a lot of instances. I would like to see it constrained. I would like to see state and local governments have more power rather than less.

But the great thing is that I live in a country where I can actually try to see those things come to pass, because I can vote, I can send letters to my elected officials, etc. IOW, I can definitely try to change the things (and laws) I don't like. That's how change should take place; not some weird notion that police officers should be deciding, on the streets, off the cuff, which laws to enforce and which ones not to enforce based on their personal preferences.

I, for one, would like to see an answer from C_G and Meril as to what has happened in their own lives to give them such a dark view of the police? Did you guys grow up in the inner city and see police brutality on a regular basis? Have you been terrorized by the police in your community? Singled out for mistreatment? Been arrested?

I mean, otherwise, you're basing your view on the things you see in the media.


Lali

C_G and Meril, while hunting this morning I took some time to think about your questions and my response. I came to conclusion that no answer I can give will ever change your mind, in fact you said only one thing could change your minds would be for me to denounce a law. I cannot and will not do that. I took an oath to uphold the US Constitution, my State Constitution, my city's charter, and laws/ordinances of my city. If I did this then I would go against a solemn promise and this would cause me to lose integrity. Without integrity I would be just like those you say I am already a part of.

It is sad that you both are so narrow minded that you cannot see that there are good officers out there doing one hell of a job. All you see is the alleged bad that is always so quickly condemned by people who do not get all the facts before screaming that it was wrong. Most are later found to be appropriate, but the media will not show that.

I would like to know if you base your opinion on personal experience or hear-say. Since I have not seen a response to my questions to meril it leads me to believe that it is hear-say and not personal experience.

freddy

Feredir wrote:

C_G and Meril, while hunting this morning I took some time to think about your questions and my response. I came to conclusion that no answer I can give will ever change your mind, in fact you said only one thing could change your minds would be for me to denounce a law. I cannot and will not do that. I took an oath to uphold the US Constitution, my State Constitution, my city's charter, and laws/ordinances of my city. If I did this then I would go against a solemn promise and this would cause me to lose integrity. Without integrity I would be just like those you say I am already a part of.

freddy

Now, that's the sort of integrity we need in those hired to enforce the law!

Feredir wrote:

C_G and Meril, while hunting this morning I took some time to think about your questions and my response. I came to conclusion that no answer I can give will ever change your mind, in fact you said only one thing could change your minds would be for me to denounce a law. I cannot and will not do that. I took an oath to uphold the US Constitution, my State Constitution, my city's charter, and laws/ordinances of my city. If I did this then I would go against a solemn promise and this would cause me to lose integrity. Without integrity I would be just like those you say I am already a part of.

It is sad that you both are so narrow minded that you cannot see that there are good officers out there doing one hell of a job. All you see is the alleged bad that is always so quickly condemned by people who do not get all the facts before screaming that it was wrong. Most are later found to be appropriate, but the media will not show that.

I would like to know if you base your opinion on personal experience or hear-say. Since I have not seen a response to my questions to meril it leads me to believe that it is hear-say and not personal experience.

freddy

Feredir -

I for one fully believe you are on the side of "good" here, and sort of knowing your own beliefs and those of Lali, I can see why you WOULD be a good police officer.

I wish you would be one here where I live. Unfortunately, I have had all too much contact with the local gendarmes, almost all dealing with my problematic now nearly 22 year old daughter. THANK GOD that she no longer lives with us, and nobody here will understand that comment at all, except for maybe vison or some others who are no longer regular posters here.

I NEVER got support from the police, in fact, one time SHE brought charges against me!! I threw an empty plastic laundry basket at her when she started going all ballistic, she called the cops, they asked what had happened, I said yes, I did throw the plastic basket at her, and they charged with me with misdemeanor domestic violence, aside from the fact that she was not even supposed to be in the house at the time. It took me months of efforts and court costs to finally have the case dismissed. When I tried to enforce the eviction order and no contact order against my daughter, the police never helped me, it was all "shrugs of the shoulders" and "Well, she is just a screwed up kid."

I have NO respect for the local police, I lived in Milwaukee for years, and there, at least cops have a real job!! There, they have real crime and violence and shit to deal with, not coming up with the right amount of traffic violations to get that month's quota filled.

About oaths,

As a veteran, that means I at one time took an enlistment oath. I swore to defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic, to swear true allegiance to the same, to obey the orders of the president, and the officers appointed over me.

As it is possible that those may come in conflict, we were also told that we have no duty to obey unlawful orders, and every duty to disobey unlawful orders.

The problem is, the one giving the order seldom sees it as an unlawful order, and those who are put in a situation where they have to choose often have a very long battle ahead of them.

I've also spoken to a police officer at one time who told me that he firmly and truly believed that the 2nd amendment guaranteed a right to own a gun, and also that if a law was passed forbidding gun ownership he would do his duty to enforce it and confiscate guns. Not to turn this into a firearm thread, but instead to point out that he was speaking a contradiction. I would have respected him had he said that since he truly believed in the 2nd amendment he would not enforce any law that violates the 2nd amendment.

Yeah, what are your priorities in your own oath? For me it was pretty obvious with my USAF and then CA-ANG oaths, which meant that the constitutions came first and foremost, and after that and only after that came the chain of command from the President and Governor on down.

Now that we've put this other stuff to bed, I know my questions aren't going to get answered. What are some thoughts on the original post?

freddy

Its a tough call Freddy. I mean, how do you legislate against it? Its really a PR exercise, and the Gangsters are winning. Whats needed is a strong counter-offensive. A huge PR campaign that shows the Gangsters as the thugs they are, not benevolent "Godfather" types. Then some sort of tagline like, "Its not snitching, its saving lives" or whatever.

Or we could just stop the Drug War, which as CG pointed out is at the root of this whole problem.

Once again, his opinion. Provide me with facts from source OTHER than the media. Oh wait, you don't trust anyone so you can't provide me with proof.




freddy

"Don't trust anyone" or "don't trust the government"? There is a difference between the two.

That's true. So which is it?

And which media sources do you trust and why?


Lali

It depends on what you mean by "trust", doesn't it?

"Trust" doesn't mean "blindly accepting whatever is said".

As for "not trusting" the police, for instance. Are all police officers capable, kind, honourable men? No, but you know what? Most of them are, within human limits. They are no better than the rest of us, but they are certainly no worse.

In Canada and the USA we have means of ridding ourselves of corrupt politicians, bureaucrats and police officers. Are these means quick and simple? No, but they are there. What is needed is for The People to care enough to do something about it.

And, sadly, I think The People don't care much any more, not if it involves some real effort and thought. Easier to bitch and whine than to get up and go out and do something.

C_G, the problem is that you don't provide a foundation for your beliefs and won't answer direct questions about why you believe what you believe. This gives you zero credibility. Both you and Meril asked me and other to defend our positions we do. When you are asked simply, where does this all come from, you don't respond. Much like a politician.

If you tell me, "Hey, I was mistreated by the local police", then I can understand it. But to have as much hatred for the Gov't that you have and then not provide a basis for it is empty.

I do not blindly trust the Gov't. I do something about the things I don't like. I vote, I belong to the NRA, I am a member of Ducks Unlimited (Environmental issues without the extremism), I am the Youth Leader in my church to help guide the young people coming up. I am doing something to change the nation.


freddy

vison wrote:

It depends on what you mean by "trust", doesn't it?

"Trust" doesn't mean "blindly accepting whatever is said".

I agree completely. I don't mean trust in the fullest sense, just in the general sense.

Quote:

And, sadly, I think The People don't care much any more, not if it involves some real effort and thought. Easier to bitch and whine than to get up and go out and do something.

Sad to say this is true in our churches today as well. It's something we pray about constantly; we have too many "BICs"--butts in chairs. People don't want to do anything. They want it all done for them.




Lali

Feredir wrote:

Why do you have a hatred/distrust of the police?

Personal experience, both specific and in general.

Feredir wrote:

Have you or anyone you know been mistreated by police?

Yes.

Feredir wrote:

Have you ever spent time as a police officer?

No.

Feredir wrote:

Have you ever experienced what a police officer attends to each day?

No.

Feredir wrote:

Have you ever been hated simply because of your job?

Yes.

Feredir wrote:

Have you ever been spit on or assaulted simply because of your job?

Does that include people shooting at the gate of the base?

Feredir wrote:

Have you ever had to tell someone that their 16 year old son just killed himself?

No.

Feredir wrote:

Have you ever had to run into a house where two people have been stabbed and had to search the house, knowing you might have to confront someone wanting to kill you?

No.

Feredir wrote:

Have you ever tried to comfort the wife that just witnessed her husband commit suicide, in front of their children?

No.

I suppose that its nice that you answered, C-G.

However, your answers are not very enlightening. They do nothing to further any discussion. They do nothing to make your case.

You come across as angry, bitter and vengeful. Yet you give no clue why you might feel that way, or any justification for it.

So it is difficult, if not impossible, to engage you in any kind of meaningful dialogue. Your posts seem like mere ranting and raving with no substance.

True, I don't want to go into detail.

Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:

True, I don't want to go into detail.

Then you must realize that your arguments and dialogue will be unproductive.

You make blanket statements - in some cases, insulting and blatantly prejudicial statements - without a shred of evidence to back them up...not even anecdotal evidence. And thus, you come across as kind of a loose cannon at best and hateful at worst.

This is supposed to be a dialogue. "DI" means two...a "dialogue" is a back-and-forth exchange. You are not contributing to it; rather, you are making inflammatory statements and indulging in rhetoric with no foundation.

I suggest you either engage in constructive dialogue or cease posting in threads like this one.

So where are the threads that detail any trauma you may have experienced?