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which is better for America?

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 4:58 am
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Thanks, Rio. :) I'll take that as a compliment.

hal, I think vison is referring to the fact that Bush lost the popular vote but won the electoral vote. It's not a conspiracy theory.

I'm wondering if it's time to do away with the electoral college process. Couldn't we (with modern technology) do a true popular vote? What is the advantage to using the electoral process anyway?


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vison
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 5:11 am
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Thanks, Lalaith. But what I meant is, Dick Cheney is the real president.

That's not a conspiracy theory, that's observation of the facts.

I don't think the USA will ever get rid of the Electoral College. It's your weird tradition, like Gentleman of the Black Rod in the English Parliament. Or, shucks, even The Queen.

I do think the USA should go to a regular paper ballot. It works fine in Canada and there's no reason it can't work in the USA.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 5:15 am
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vison wrote:
TheMary, the truth is that in the past Americans elected men with more experience and did that necessarily turn out well?

Although Americans might take this badly, I will say it anyway: the president of the US is really a figurehead. He has more actual "power" than, say, the Queen of England, but in fact he does not really "govern", he is the chief and must bear the responsibility, but no one man can actually run the US, no matter how brilliant or experienced he might be.

In that case, it seems to me, that any actual "experience" is neither here nor there. What you want is a man of character, who is firmly grounded in reality, not a "ruler". A "leader" is not one who does everything himself, nor who micromanages, a leader is one who knows how to delegate and who then trusts the men he delegates to.

The actual president, not the men who surround him, is the one upon whose shoulders the burden of office falls. He must be a man who can make up his own mind, judge the characters of other men, listen to advice. Better yet, he ought to be a man who does NOT want to hear only what he wants to hear, or what marches with his preformed opinions.

I wonder if Obama is such a man. George Bush sure as hell isn't. He's had his head up his fundament all his life and being in office for 7 years seems to have taught him nothing.

But then, he's not really the president anyway.
Vison - I am going to correct you just a little bit. Even though our governmental framework makes our "president" actually the "president of the Congress" and nothing much else, over history that role has changed, and changed drastically. Its worst components have come out with GWB, who has exploited his office and claimed he was acting under duress as a "commander in chief" of something supposed to be used in wartime, which GWB almost fell into by happy circumstance when 9/11/01 occurred, the perfect excuse for him and everyone else in his regime to take on issues which had NOTHING to do with OBL or AQ, but long standing sour grapes over the Gulf War and the oil issues. I know that you also figured out that lst little bit, but it is alarming how many Americans have not, or think we still have some sort of "manifest destiny" sort of thing that we need to apply to the rest of the world which does not always welcome us.

I have tried to calm this thread down by addressing the questions, it seems this is too touchy of a subject for even rational responses to those on the part of some, but, it is getting better. Can we all address the topics at hand and not the posters themselves? Heck, for those who are NOT Americans, you can all see that this is a VERY touchy subject with most of us who are, more so than I have ever seen in my lifetime, for whatever that is worth.

How ironic that the topic was started by a non-American with good and valid intent, and that those that seem to be inflaming it for the most part have missed HIS point entirely. ;)

For the record, can we say that if a candidate BRINGS his/her personal faith or religious background into his/her campaign, it should be fair grounds for criticism? If it is a "background" sort of issue or one that is merely expressed for clarity's sake (as in Romney and his Mormon beliefs) then I can see them being sort of off tangent as to the discussions here. However, flip-flopping on issues or changing one's stance should certainly NOT be exempt from scrutiny as far as candidates go..

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Riverthalos
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 5:18 am
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It was meant as a compliment Lali. A real and honest one. Now go make some noise, mmkay? Make the US a slightly more comfortable place for atheists like me. :)
TheMary wrote:
I didn't like Bill so it's no surprise that I'm not a Hillary fan either.
And this is what will ultimately hurt Hillary. She's trading on her experience, and that comes from her time in the White House with Bill. As an independent politician she's smack in the middle of her SECOND senate term. Junior Senator from NY is the only elected position she's held. Whereas Obama is in the middle of his first term as the Junior Senator from Illinois, a position that he won after several terms on the Illinois state legislator.

Now granted, being the First Lady, Hillary got to see a lot of shit go down. She is also an incredibly strong woman. She has to be. It's tough to be a woman playing a traditionally man's game...and winning. But I'm not sure I'm buying her experienced line. And I don't like Hillary. As I've said before, she's too much of a hawk. I'm not an Obama fan girl either. My preference is Kucinich. But I'm a fruitcake like that and you guys have known that for a while so that shouldn't be a surprise.

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 5:43 am
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Well, I do like the fact that Kucinich is from my hometown of Cleveland. :D But he is truly an odd character.

Making noise hurts me, Rio. I am literally and figuratively a very quiet person! :)

vison, I'm sorry; I did think you were talking about the whole popular vote issue with GWB, obviously. So Dick Cheney is the president? You know, I believe it. I watch SNL; they say it's true, so it must be. :D


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TheMary
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 6:46 am
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Fair enough Demo :)

CG you're a hard core political debater I won't even try to contend but the way you go about certain situations seems like you're only goal is to piss someone off.

vison, there will never be a person qualified enough in my mind to ever run the United States. The past couple of elections were "who's the lesser of the two evils" which is pretty much how I view politics.

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halplm
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 8:11 am
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TM, if you think Demo's point of view is fair in any way, I can't stand to even speak to you...

this board has gone WAY beyond what is worth paying attention too

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The Watcher
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 8:28 am
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hal -

For what it is worth, I DO want to hear your response to my question, I am in no way trying to slight you or offend you. Maybe you did not see my post directed at you a page back? I know there have been a lot of other posts in between.

I think this election is very important, much more so than can be conveyed in mere words, but with that being said, I am really surprised at how disillusioned I find myself being at the moment, no, I did not expect some miracle candidate to present himself/herself, I just thought we all deserved better. So, within the field of what is out there, what do you do?

Last edited by The Watcher on Mon 07 Jan , 2008 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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democritus
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 10:20 am
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TheMary wrote:
Fair enough Demo :)
:)


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Dave_LF
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 2:49 pm
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I don't know; it's certainly true that the President is more of a figurehead than the average man on the street seems to believe, but it's also true that the office is much less of a figurehead than it used to be. And as others have mentioned, the whole issue of war powers is enormously important. Is there anyone who seriously thinks we'd be in Iraq right now if CheneyBush hadn't been in the White House in '03? Just about everyone else fell in line to support the action, but how many would have initiated it on their own? That single Executive decision will alter our trajectory for years to come. But on the other hand, it is certainly naive to imagine that fixing (say) healthcare is mostly a matter of electing the right person. Maybe the way to say it is that a good President can make things a little better, but man oh man can a bad one make them worse.

Also, the word "figurehead" is often meant as a pejorative, but figureheads do matter. The Presidents who shone the brightest were the ones who inspired people to press on through hard times. This is often as much a matter of saying the right thing in the right way at the right time as it is signing the right bill or executive order. If you, like I, suspect that we're in for another round of tough times, maybe the ability of each candidate to act as an inspirational figurehead is worth considering.

One of the things that disturbs me most is the impression that Americans don't really want a President; they want a king they can get rid of after four years. In fact, I'm reminded pretty strongly of the Israelites' clamoring for a king in the Bible and Samuel's warning that a king would only break their backs and take their sons away to war. Everyone needs to be careful what they wish for.


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vison
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 3:30 pm
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That was my point, Dave_LF. The president has to be a symbol. He IS a symbol, but how many of them rise to the situation? What a good leader HAS to do is tell the truth. I don't mean the ordinary every day kind of truth telling, but the truth on important issues - such as, "We might be in for a bad time, people, so let's buckle down and get going." Not, "Everything is fabulous thanks to me and my swell policies. Shut up and trust me."

In Canada we have an elected prime minister but our head of state is The Queen. Our Governor General, a non-elected appointee, does the Queen's duties as head of state because, after all, the Queen lives in England.

So the GG does the ribbon-cutting and state visits, etc., whilst the PM does the work. Theoretically.

It seems to me that some past VP's in the US performed a similar role?

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democritus
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 3:46 pm
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The republican candidates go to new lengths to frighten us in what is already the defining meme of most of the candidates messages.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/01/07/terror/

The article includes probably the stupidest and most uninformed quote by a candidate in the election so far.

"Mike Huckabee -- no foreign policy maven -- answered a press conference question about immigration by invoking the specter of Pakistanis with "shoulder-fired missiles" sneaking across the U.S.-Mexico border."

I mean what-the-fuck?! :Q

The choices in this election are already getting stark. The Republican candidates generally speaking are peddling varying shades of fear, while the Democrat candidates generally speaking are offering messages of hope. I know which one I'd be more interested in investigating if I was one of these much vaunted 'independents'.

Last edited by democritus on Mon 07 Jan , 2008 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 4:13 pm
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One of the Republicans isn't spreading fear. Well, not to the electorate. He terrifies the party hacks.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 5:09 pm
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vison wrote:
That was my point, Dave_LF. The president has to be a symbol. He IS a symbol, but how many of them rise to the situation? What a good leader HAS to do is tell the truth. I don't mean the ordinary every day kind of truth telling, but the truth on important issues - such as, "We might be in for a bad time, people, so let's buckle down and get going." Not, "Everything is fabulous thanks to me and my swell policies. Shut up and trust me."

In Canada we have an elected prime minister but our head of state is The Queen. Our Governor General, a non-elected appointee, does the Queen's duties as head of state because, after all, the Queen lives in England.

So the GG does the ribbon-cutting and state visits, etc., whilst the PM does the work. Theoretically.

It seems to me that some past VP's in the US performed a similar role?
And if the Queen or King ever gained military power and the trust of the economic powers, and was evil, what then? Serious question.



And Wiggum For President. Because he's been a good boy and he doesn't want his dogs to eat his hot wheels anymore.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 5:23 pm
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Lol.
What a bunch of shit stirrers in here. :neutral:
Enough with the inflammatory rhetoric. Leave that stuff to me.

***NEWS FLASH***

It isn't about black, white, female, preacher or any other damned thing. They are all politicians dressed up like a black man, and a white woman etc. Politicians with a capital P.
People that are voting based on gender or skin color are going to be disillusioned thinking that any of these candidates represents average America.
I love this Obama and Edwards nonsense about change. Change my ass. They are all part of the machine.

Do they have politics in other countries, because all I ever hear is people talking about US politics? Oh of course they do. It is just other countries are as significant to us as apparently Ron Paul is. :Wooper:

Figurehead? Oh you vison you. :P
A president is someone that doles out responsibilities and appoints people to the cabinet etc. Of course no one person could run this or any other country. Yet they can and do have serious imput and affect.
Think Lincoln affected slavery? Think John Calhoun would have had a different effect?
Think LBJ and Nixon had any affect on Viet Nam?
Figurehead is not the operative term here by any stretch. If it were so, then why is everyone so riled about GWB? He would be insignificant like Ron Paul apparently is.

The only presidential candidate that I ever really supported was John Anderson, and that was a long time ago. I don't expect that to change any time soon.
Well unless they dig up Pat Paulsen.


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 5:49 pm
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So you won't be voting for Ralph Wiggum?






I am so disappointed.

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democritus
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Holbytla wrote:
Do they have politics in other countries, because all I ever hear is people talking about US politics? Oh of course they do. It is just other countries are as significant to us as apparently Ron Paul is. :Wooper:
Well I love politics and have followed a number of elections in the last three years very closely including the Italian, German, New Zealand, Canadian, British, French, Turkish, Australian, and now US elections. I will also be following the Pakistani election very closely (if and when it does happen). It's a shame that many of your country members don't follow other countries or their politics in even a half-hearted way as the amount they could learn about other counties and themselves would be truly educational and possibly humbling.

It would also make their opinions about themselves and other countries an awful lot more informed. I can't tell you how much of a pleasure it is to meet smart, well-informed, politically aware Americans (and I've met plenty) both in the US and abroad. It is always a reminder that they are unfairly hostage to too many people who don't even believe that Hungary is a country.

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vison
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 5:56 pm
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Ara-Anna, since the monarch of England was relegated to a ceremonial role, such a thing has become extremely unlikely. Nearly impossible. Not TOTALLY impossible, but pretty close.

I think it is more likely that a popular monarch, such as QE II, could gain public support against a power-mad PM or an attempted coup of some kind. Technically, the Queen or the GG can refuse to sign any given legislation. Until it is signed, it's not Law. So that's another check on lunatic PM's determined to wreak havoc.

Parliament governs Great Britain, our parliament governs Canada. There is no mechanism where anyone could "take over" unless it was an actual armed revolution of some kind and that's sorta doubtful.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 6:01 pm
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Not falling for that one.
Next you'll try and convince us that Hamburg and Franfurt are places and not food.


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 6:07 pm
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Demo,

Wrong assumption buddy. We do follow the elections of other countries.

And I would bet there's a ton of people in other countries that don't follow their own politics as much as they do the US stuff.

Why...

Because you all Jones for US stuff, you are the paparazzi of US politics. If you don't get your dose of ripping the US political system every day you would have no idea of what to feel your time with.

I find it absolutely funny the BBC covers the US primaries. Laughable really. I wonder if those who run the BBC actually have no other news or stuff to do but to Jones the US political system.

And then I find it funny that everyone complains about how the US inadates ths entire world, yet there they are every night watching the BBC coverage of the US primaries.

Cause and Effect.

The US political process is the worlds Paris, Brit, and Lindsey all rolled into one.

Cause and Effect.

But we in the US really don't mind if you Jones our stuff, it only makes the US media richer. And as everyone knows the US media rules the freakin' world. :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

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