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Justifications for faith

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Iavas_Saar
Post subject: Justifications for faith
Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 8:00 pm
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I posted these questions in the dark ages thread, and jewel was intending to start a new thread with her answers, but I figured I'd get the ball rolling. So here are the questions again. You should only answer if you do not mind your answers being dissected and challenged. :)

Could you please lay out how you think everything began and how it works - i.e. the universe, god, humans - in as scientific a manner as you can manage? It should include a description of what you think god is and how he/she came into being.
Does god have a gender?
What is gods motivation?
In what physical way can god change the world? Does god monitor every single person? If so does god have multiple "souls"?
What evidence do you see in todays world that god is doing good things?

If god can currently change the world, why is there so much unfairness? If he can't change anything, if he just set things in motion, what is the point of prayer? Basically, how can someone pray and at the same time feel god wants the best for everyone?

And what is the single biggest factor that convinced/convinces you that having faith is correct?

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 9:25 pm
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I may give this a go later on tonight, if I have time.


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The Watcher
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 9:35 pm
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Err, do we have enough bandwidth to supply our answers to these questions Iavas? ;) :D

I too may take a stab at this later, it will take time to form a coherent and fairly concise answer.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 9:39 pm
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Hey, if I have figured out all the mysteries of the universe, why should I tell you? That would be worse than telling the end of a book.

Maybe you should put a spoiler alert on this thread!
;)

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jadeval
Post subject: Re: Justifications for faith
Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 9:42 pm
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
Could you please lay out how you think everything began and how it works - i.e. the universe, god, humans - in as scientific a manner as you can manage? It should include a description of what you think god is and how he/she came into being.
Sure, let me just consult my "How Reality Works" book here, oh and the supplemental essay "What IS Reality?" will be helpful here considering that we are asked to unify science and God.

The closest thing to what you are asking is probably Aquinas' Summa Theologica (excepting much of the science part in the modern sense). Since then, however, comprehensive summas proposing to describe everything (including the divine) in a rational manner have mostly been abandoned as impossibly complex, or simply impossible. If you want mostly theological answers, then there are Christian theologians who've published systematic theologies... long, very long systematic theologies in some cases (Barth, Pannenberg, etc.). If you want answers from physics or cosmology, you can consult the appropriate sources there. If you want evolutionary answers, there are those too. But what are you looking for? All answers rolled into one?

Last edited by jadeval on Mon 07 Jan , 2008 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 9:46 pm
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Can we agree to vote the first smartass to say 42 off the island? :blackeye:


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The Watcher
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 9:49 pm
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Dave_LF wrote:
Can we agree to vote the first smartass to say 42 off the island? :blackeye:
Nah, we plunk him/her down in front of jadeval and make them write a 50 page essay on Summa Theologica. :D:D

(j/k, jadeval!! ;))

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Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 miles per second, is a cow that has been dropped from a helicopter.

Never under any circumstances take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

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Glaciers melting in the dead of night and the superstars sucked into the supermassive...
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Crucifer
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Posted: Mon 07 Jan , 2008 9:51 pm
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Quote:
Could you please lay out how you think everything began and how it works - i.e. the universe, god, humans - in as scientific a manner as you can manage? It should include a description of what you think god is and how he/she came into being.
Does god have a gender?
What is gods motivation?
In what physical way can god change the world? Does god monitor every single person? If so does god have multiple "souls"?
What evidence do you see in todays world that god is doing good things?

If god can currently change the world, why is there so much unfairness? If he can't change anything, if he just set things in motion, what is the point of prayer? Basically, how can someone pray and at the same time feel god wants the best for everyone?

And what is the single biggest factor that convinced/convinces you that having faith is correct?
[start ramble]

Hmmm... Everything began with a big bang, I think. But that had to come from somewhere... And was moulded, I believe by a someone (God type being) existing in that somewhere... It works because it was designed to work independently of its creator... And so on... I'm not being very coherent here...
How God came into being? Hmmm... I don't know. I believe it may be outside time and space as we understand them. Rules like "how" and "why" don't apply to it...

It wouldn't have a gender, I don't think... I don't think, anyway, that it would have genders as we understand them... Hermaphrodite maybe?

Gods motivation is investigation. That is one thing I do believe. The universe is one big experimental cloud of dust...

Physically, God can sort of manipulate the physical Universe. Mould it, if you will, but not absolutely directly change things because of cause/effect...

Monitoring every single person? I doubt it. You know the way you have really really weird days sometimes? Gods taken an interest...

Mightn't have multiple souls... Might have different aspects of the one whole (Trinity style) that are responsible for different things...

Evidence that God is doing good things: Butterflies. LOTR. Mozart. Einstein. Roses. Water (Miraculous substance). Humanity in itself, in certain ways. Gravity. Picasso. Scientific Progress. Language. Mathematics. Etc. Etc. Etc.

God changing things, see above. Cause and Effect.

Praying is just hoping with bells attached. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Someone can pray for something selfish, but still belive that God wants the best for everyone, which is why prayers often go unanswered. It's about the bigger picture.

Why do I believe? I am here, now, having these thoughts, typing them, knowing that I type them. I know. I think, therefore I believe...
[/end ramble]

I realise what I've said may not always be consistent or coherent, but the real answer to all of Iavas' questions is: I have no idea.

I've just tried to expand on that a little. ;)

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue 08 Jan , 2008 12:43 am
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Thanks for having a go Crucifer. :)
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Hmmm... Everything began with a big bang, I think. But that had to come from somewhere... And was moulded, I believe by a someone (God type being) existing in that somewhere... It works because it was designed to work independently of its creator... And so on... I'm not being very coherent here...
How God came into being? Hmmm... I don't know. I believe it may be outside time and space as we understand them. Rules like "how" and "why" don't apply to it...
So for this whole thing to work, there must be another "reality" which contains atleast one super-being who is able to set up a three-dimensional universe by some unknown means. This other reality, as it's unknown, could contain anything.
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It wouldn't have a gender, I don't think... I don't think, anyway, that it would have genders as we understand them... Hermaphrodite maybe?
I am not familiar with the bible, but isn't God referred to as "father" in some texts?
Quote:
Gods motivation is investigation. That is one thing I do believe. The universe is one big experimental cloud of dust...
We're all part of a big experiment? Well that would explain all the suffering and unfairness.. but how exactly does that offer you any comfort? If I were to be a victim, I would rather be a victim of random forces of nature, than a casualty of an experiment in which the instigator allowed for extreme levels of suffering to occur.
Quote:
Physically, God can sort of manipulate the physical Universe. Mould it, if you will, but not absolutely directly change things because of cause/effect...

Monitoring every single person? I doubt it. You know the way you have really really weird days sometimes? Gods taken an interest...
That makes no sense to me. Can you be more specific - what sort of things can be moulded? If cause/effect is not possible, how could God take an interest and cause you to have a "weird" day? Do you really think this experimenter focuses in on you personally and decides "I am going to make his day a little different today"?
Quote:
Mightn't have multiple souls... Might have different aspects of the one whole (Trinity style) that are responsible for different things...
But ultimately, God either has one consciousness or it doesn't. From what you're saying (i.e. that God does take an interest in you occasionally), it seems that God must have multiple consciousnesses or there'd be no way to take an interest in everyone even once in their lives.
Quote:
Evidence that God is doing good things: Butterflies. LOTR. Mozart. Einstein. Roses. Water (Miraculous substance). Humanity in itself, in certain ways. Gravity. Picasso. Scientific Progress. Language. Mathematics. Etc. Etc. Etc.
I think this probably gets to the crux of it. And I've had these moments myself - when what you see around you or the emotion you're experiencing just seems too right or perfect or sublime to be a random grouping of particles obeying physical laws. But as beautiful as it seems, it can be explained by science alone. Also, none of those things make up for the suffering and unfairness in the world. For example, I can't imagine feeling it was a fair trade-off if I was wheel-chair bound at an early age, but was still able to see butterflies. And from your previous answers, it sounds like those things are just the positive aspects of Gods grand experiment with the universe, rather than a conscious effort to improve the world.
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Praying is just hoping with bells attached. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Someone can pray for something selfish, but still belive that God wants the best for everyone, which is why prayers often go unanswered. It's about the bigger picture.
So does God listen to prayers or not? It sounds like you're saying he can't answer prayers and that it's down to luck if someone's hoping comes true?

The bigger picture that I'm getting from you seems to be that God set up the universe to investigate what would happen. But it was set up in a way that allowed for great unfairness and injustice to occur with no way for God to stop it. That sounds highly irresponsible to me. Is this really a caring and loving God, or someone simply toying with humanity?
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Why do I believe? I am here, now, having these thoughts, typing them, knowing that I type them. I know. I think, therefore I believe...
Self-awareness must mean there is a super-being in another reality??

We are animals, and we can trace our lineage back to creatures that were not self-aware. Therefore self-awareness was a gradual progression, and a totally natural thing. There was no gaurantee it would happen either. Did God direct the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs and allowed for the ascendency of mammals? If that asteroid had missed, we would not be sitting here today having this conversation.

The fact that self-awareness came on gradually over time is proof that no divine force is needed for this to have occured - it simply developed from simpler and simpler life forms going back in time. It is just a by-product of evolution.

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laureanna
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Posted: Tue 08 Jan , 2008 2:36 am
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
We're all part of a big experiment? Well that would explain all the suffering and unfairness.. but how exactly does that offer you any comfort? If I were to be a victim, I would rather be a victim of random forces of nature, than a casualty of an experiment in which the instigator allowed for extreme levels of suffering to occur.
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One man's sorrow is another man's joy.
First we are going to have to define things. Let's say an American kills an Iraqi. Please define "unfairness", "comfort" and "suffering" from the point of view of you, me, the American, the Iraqi, their leaders, and their children.

Can an omnipotent being allow one act that will be "fair" to all 6 million of us? Can she allow one act that will bring all of us comfort? Or is that judgment in our individual minds?

Life is one long process of suffering and dying. But it beats the alternative, for me, anyway. I'm not holding God or anyone else responsible for the messiness of Life.

And I don't see God as The Guy in the Sky with the Big Lab Coat.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue 08 Jan , 2008 6:10 am
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Quote:
First we are going to have to define things. Let's say an American kills an Iraqi. Please define "unfairness", "comfort" and "suffering" from the point of view of you, me, the American, the Iraqi, their leaders, and their children.
The only time suffering would be considered justified would be if it served a greater purpose by preventing greater suffering of others. An American killing an innocent Iraqi is unfair to all involved. It benefits nothing and noone.
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Can an omnipotent being allow one act that will be "fair" to all 6 million of us? Can she allow one act that will bring all of us comfort? Or is that judgment in our individual minds?
Yes I think so. Bringing about the end of a war could only benefit every person. Making cancer easily curable could only benefit the whole planet. Allowing a young man far better and kinder than myself in his final year of college to die from a rare cancer caused sorrow that could not possibly have any reciprocal joy or benefit. "One man's sorrow is another man's joy" is provably false in millions and millions of cases today and throughout history.
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Life is one long process of suffering and dying. But it beats the alternative, for me, anyway. I'm not holding God or anyone else responsible for the messiness of Life.
But yet I assume you hold God responsible for the good things in life.
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And I don't see God as The Guy in the Sky with the Big Lab Coat.
What then is Gods MO, and in what real, physical ways do you see it in action in the world? What is the most persuasive thing that convinces you there is a supernatural being beyond our known laws of science?

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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Tue 08 Jan , 2008 11:44 am
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laureanna wrote:
Can an omnipotent being allow one act that will be "fair" to all 6 million of us?
Let's make that 6 billion, shall we? ;)
Iavas_Saar wrote:
Making cancer easily curable could only benefit the whole planet.
Benefit humans, yes. Benefit the planet, no. Human overpopulation is doing enormous damage to the planet. If we were to cure every disease, what would be the consequences? If there is a God - I do not believe that there is - perhaps he's trying to see the bigger picture? (In which case he is doing a very poor job, why is there no "You shall not destroy the planet" in the Ten Commandments? ;))



(Note that I am not saying that we shouldn't try to cure diseases or do our best in any case to keep people from dying. Of course not! Humanist here. ;) Iavas's wording just made me think.)

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Tue 08 Jan , 2008 1:13 pm
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Nienor SharkAttack wrote:
Iavas_Saar wrote:
Making cancer easily curable could only benefit the whole planet.
Benefit humans, yes. Benefit the planet, no. Human overpopulation is doing enormous damage to the planet. If we were to cure every disease, what would be the consequences? If there is a God - I do not believe that there is - perhaps he's trying to see the bigger picture?
I know you're playing devil's advocate here, but my response to someone who made this argument sincerely would be that a tri-omni creator should have been able to design an ecosystem that could keep itself in balance without the need for suffering and death.


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Holbytla
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Faith by definition needs no justification.

Personally I don't feel the need to find answers to all of the mysteries.
I don't need to put a name on a god or try to define any being which is far beyond my comprehension.

I believe the universe is out there and is composed of billions of galaxies, which are composed of billions of stars etc. I know that to be true, but I also know there is no way I am capable of conceiving the enormity of the universe.

I believe in something, but I have no idea what that something is.
I am suspect at best regarding any proofs or evidence.
We barely understand anything at all and it seems silly to me to draw any conclusions from such evidence.

I believe we are here and I believe in something. No idea what that something is and I refuse to try to conceptualize with such a feeble mind that can't even conceive the place we live in.


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WampusCat
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I have no need to put God in a human box. A being who exists outside what we normally perceive as reality can't be defined or limited by our concepts of gender or even time. (Calling God "Father" is a metaphor comparing God to a loving parent, not a statement of gender. It's just less awkward than saying "Mother/Father," although some newer liturgies use both genders when addressing God.)

I believe that God loves us but does not control our actions, so of course there will be unfairness. What matters is that God's loving presence can strengthen us and bring good from horrible situations if we allow it.

Why do I believe this? Because I have experienced it. I have experienced the presence of a reality greater than this reality. I have been challenged and comforted and led by it.

What is God's nature? Love. What is God's motivation? Love, which overflows into creative action. How did the universe begin? Natural processes (big bang, evolution). Why did it begin? God's love.

Prayer aligns us with God's love, which is with all individuals and indeed with all of creation. Everyone bears the inner spark of the image of God. So it's not a matter of God "monitoring" each person, any more than you "monitor" your hands or feet. God is greater than us, outside us, but is also woven through us.

The rest is mystery (really, it's all mystery), and I'm content with that.

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MariaHobbit
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Iavas wrote:
But ultimately, God either has one consciousness or it doesn't. From what you're saying (i.e. that God does take an interest in you occasionally), it seems that God must have multiple consciousnesses or there'd be no way to take an interest in everyone even once in their lives.
No so, Iavas. A god can be outside of linear time and could zip back and forth throughout the whole timeline, taking turns being every single person, animal, plant and rock in our entire universe- one being at a time, in whatever order it chose.

Omnipotence is an awfully big concept. Being caught in the flow of linear time like a fly in amber does not seem very omnipotent to me. A god has time enough to do anything, anywhere, anywhen.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue 08 Jan , 2008 3:49 pm
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Quote:
No so, Iavas. A god can be outside of linear time and could zip back and forth throughout the whole timeline, taking turns being every single person, animal, plant and rock in our entire universe- one being at a time, in whatever order it chose.

Omnipotence is an awfully big concept. Being caught in the flow of linear time like a fly in amber does not seem very omnipotent to me. A god has time enough to do anything, anywhere, anywhen.
He didn't seem to have time to stop my best friend at college dieing a slow and horrible death for no reason whatsoever.

The more remarkable the abilities you attribute to God, while maintaining that he is a loving creator, the less you can justify the millions of example of unfairness in the world.

In any case if God could indeed do anything at any point in time, that would have to mean the entire future of the universe was laid out from the very beginning. But God would have infinite tries at changing that future through time travelling. With such power, it should have been rather straight forward to prevent the world's biggest tragedies.

In your time travel theory, when does the actual event take place for the human? For example, God creates the universe and all of time is laid out. In this initial future, the Holocaust is due to happen in WW2. But let's say God time travels and changes enough things before the Holocaust so that it is prevented. Did the suffering of the Holocaust ever occur?

If it did occur, then there was no point making the changes. If it didn't, then how does a human ever experience anything, because it could just be that God has yet to change the past, as with the Holocaust example I just gave. Unless you are argueing for parallel universes, I don't see any answer to this paradox.

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MariaHobbit
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I don't think that if there is a god it is much interested promoting happiness, as much as creating a good story line. And "happily ever after" makes for a boring experience, so every life seems to be filled with a tug of war between happiness and despair. :shrug: I assume that is for entertainment purposes, or it could be asthetic reasons. I haven't decided if this universe is a work of art or an entertainment venue. :)

I don't have any standardized religious views, so it would be a major sidetrack to enumerate my theories on the subject, and it's equally futile to assume that I hold such standard beliefs as to the beneficence of a God, if -indeed- there is one.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue 08 Jan , 2008 4:27 pm
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Sorry Maria, I made the wrong assumption from your first post.

So does anyone with standard beliefs back the time-travel idea, or does God have multiple consciousnesses?

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halplm
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Posted: Tue 08 Jan , 2008 4:32 pm
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God doesn't want bad things to happen to people, but that doesn't mean he won't allow them to happen.

If God fixed everything to be perfect, then we lose any ability to make our own choices, and become mindless. He could have created that, but apparently that possability had little value to him. He wanted people to think for themselves, and in order for that to be possible, they have to be able to make bad choices, no matter how much we hate to see it, and the results.

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