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Evolution and Religion

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Evolution and Religion
Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 9:32 pm
Filthy darwinian hobbit
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I had a browse back but this old stand-by of Manwe doesn't seem to crop up here.
It's just that over on TORC Lagniappe posted this item:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Comer

and I was somewhat dumbfounded. Does this sort of thing really happen?

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halplm
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Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 10:01 pm
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What proponents of teaching evolution in schools fail to realize, is that for people that do not believe evolution can explain our origins, teaching only evolution in public schools, is teach kids that their religion is wrong.

The so called "separation of church and state" should apply equally to protecting religions from such "attacks" as it does to promoting any one religion.

It would be so easy to elimate this argument about what should be taught in schools... just teach the science... leave the origins of life to a college course. There's SO much biology to teach a High School student... stuff that is actually relevant to what they see out the window... even evolutionary mechanisms at work that we see.

The furvor of the Evolution side of the debate is equal to that of the Creation/ID side. It's not about teaching science... it's about sticking it to "those religious folks" Why have the problem? Just don't teach either!

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Axordil
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Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 10:08 pm
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Tosh--
Yes, and until the people who want my taxes used to support their religion all die off, it will continue to. Texas is one of those places where the whole separation of church and state thing never really sank in, so it's more common there, but it's not the only state with these people running, or attempting to run, the show.

Did you know that the Earth is actually hollow and filled with creamy nougat? What? You disagree? Well, I guess we'll just have to teach the controversy, then, won't we? :devil:

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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 10:14 pm
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halplm wrote:
It would be so easy to elimate this argument about what should be taught in schools... just teach the science...
Which is what they do when they teach evolution...
Axordil wrote:
Did you know that the Earth is actually hollow and filled with creamy nougat?
And we are drilling for oil because-?! :Q:drool:

Last edited by Nienor SharkAttack on Sun 27 Jan , 2008 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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halplm
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Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 10:16 pm
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Nienor SharkAttack wrote:
halplm wrote:
It would be so easy to elimate this argument about what should be taught in schools... just teach the science...
Which is what they do when they teach evolution...
Well, I guess that's the whole debate...

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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 10:20 pm
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The debate is whether the theory of evolution is science or not? Who says that it's not? All science is theories, and this is the theory of evolution. I thought it was more along the lines of "We do not want this science because it is not in compliance with our religious beliefs"..?

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Axordil
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Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 10:25 pm
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Nienor SharkAttack wrote:

And we are drilling for oil because-?! :Q:drool:
It's a byproduct of what happens when creamy nougat is eaten by subterranean chocolate elementals. And it disagrees with their digestion.

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Estel
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Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 10:39 pm
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If I ever had a kid, I would never send them to a school that taught so called "intelligent design."

To be honest, I never understood why there was even a debate about this. "Intelligent design" is a religious based teaching with no evidence found at all with the scientific method - therefore, it is not science.

If schools want to teach it as a religious studies based class, that's fine, but calling it science is like saying that a fish is really a loaf of bread. It's simply not.

There is no debate. There are just people who want religion taught in public schools. There are private religious schools for a reason - people who want their children taught "intelligent design" should send their children there.




Having lived in Texas though.... well, I'll never live there again, let's just put it that way :Q :scarey:



and I want to eat the chocolate elementals :D


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Pippin4242
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Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 10:40 pm
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hal, all sorts of things can be contradictory to religion. Are you seriously saying that schools should never teach anything which isn't necessarily covered in a religion's doctrine? That would rule out an awful lot of things. Like should cooking lessons not teach how to cook meat, because that's potentially offensive to Buddhists? Should history classes not teach communism because enforced equality is alien to Satanists? Should geography classes not teach about tectonic plates because I say that the continents were formed perfectly from the ectoplasmic sneeze of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

If it's on the curriculum, it's probably there for a reason. Let the science teachers teach science, and let the religious studies teachers talk about religion.

*~Pips~*

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Axordil
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Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 10:45 pm
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Quote:
Should geography classes not teach about tectonic plates because I say that the continents were formed perfectly from the ectoplasmic sneeze of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Oh, now you're just being silly. The continents are actually large masses of cooled dark chocolate that float on top of the nougat. I can prove this by showing you core samples I've obtained by drilling all over the world, from Belgium to Switzerland to Hershey, PA.

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Estel
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Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 10:46 pm
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What Pips said :yes: as she said it so much better than me :P

Axordil wrote:
The continents are actually large masses of cooled dark chocolate that float on top of the nougat. I can prove this by showing you core samples I've obtained by drilling all over the world, from Belgium to Switzerland to Hershey, PA.
Now I'm really hungry :popcorn:


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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 10:51 pm
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Having different views is one thing but conducting a reign of terror (metaphorically speaking - perhaps I should just call it coercion) against teachers who try to do their job so others end up being too scared to teach properly sounds horrific and an awful indication of how far things have got in the US.

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halplm
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Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 11:14 pm
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well, I'm not going to get into the "is teaching evolution as the origin of life" actual science or not again... see many of my posts in the past.

Our understanding of the billions of years or so that are necessary for evolution to explain teh diversity of life we have here, changes constantly. Personally I don't think it's appropriate to teach at a High School or lower level. It's not a piece of knowledge that is "foundational." If you learn something about evolution as our origins in High School, and never study biology again, 20 years later everything you learned will be wrong, and all you remember is that "those religious people are wrong and silly."

Is it so hard to understand why people would object to their kids learning things that way?

It's a subject of biology that is not fundamental... Like quantum physics... Our knowledge is constantly evolving (pun intended), so why would we want to confuse kids with stuff we're not even sure of?

Teach kids mendel, watson, and crick... teach them darwin, but don't mess with saying all life came from single celled organisms. Leave it for people that actualy care... don't force it down everyones throats, just as some of you don't want a whisper of religion mentioned anywhwere...

You have to ask what this whole argument is really about. Why does evolution from single celled organisms to modern life HAVE to be scientific fact? Why does it HAVE to be tought to kids who can't possibly grasp all of what's behind the theory, or what is NOT understood about it?

It's the same reason that non-religious people are SO concerned with any exposure their kids might have to any religion... because many times kids will just take something told to them by a teacher as the way things are... and never think about it again.

Leave it to the Science teachers? well, what if you think the science teachers have got it wrong? I for one, would never want my kid to be taught something I thought was wrong.

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Jude
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Posted: Sun 27 Jan , 2008 11:51 pm
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The following truffles have been intelligently designed:

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...unlike the earth. :Wooper:

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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Mon 28 Jan , 2008 12:22 am
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I must say, hal, I’m somewhat insulted of your very low thoughts about high school students’ intelligence level… Anyway, I came out of high school (or our equivalent to high school) less than a year ago, after two years of great biology classes…
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Our understanding of the billions of years or so that are necessary for evolution to explain teh diversity of life we have here, changes constantly. Personally I don't think it's appropriate to teach at a High School or lower level. It's not a piece of knowledge that is "foundational." If you learn something about evolution as our origins in High School, and never study biology again, 20 years later everything you learned will be wrong, and all you remember is that "those religious people are wrong and silly."
What piece of knowledge is foundational? Our knowledge about everything changes the whole time – that’s the very point of science. If we can only teach things in school that will never change, well, it’ll be an easy ride. Or a Bible school…

If all you remember is that "those religious people are wrong and silly", then that might have something to do with a bunch of religious people acting very silly when it comes to this issue…

Also, I think you are (again) underestimating people. We learn a lot more in life than what we are taught in school. (Don’t ya have the Discovery Channel? :blackeye:)
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It's a subject of biology that is not fundamental... Like quantum physics... Our knowledge is constantly evolving (pun intended), so why would we want to confuse kids with stuff we're not even sure of?
Let me please say this again: Kids are not stupid! And, also that again, nothing in science is certain. Which, I may add, is also taught in school. Absolute truths belong to religion, and political leaders that should not be political leaders…
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You have to ask what this whole argument is really about. Why does evolution from single celled organisms to modern life HAVE to be scientific fact? Why does it HAVE to be tought to kids who can't possibly grasp all of what's behind the theory, or what is NOT understood about it?
Okay, I’ll not drag on about the whole “what is science/scientific facts” thing again. But let me say that you seem perfectly okay with scientific facts that do not contradict your religion…

But anyway, have you never heard of debate? Don’t you think we debated these things in school? With our teacher, in class, the whole debate is mentioned in our text books – yes, they say something about what is NOT understood about it. And for the sake of God, Darwin and/or The Flying Spaghetti Monster, human beings below the age of 18 are not stupid!!

Last edited by Nienor SharkAttack on Mon 28 Jan , 2008 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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halplm
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Posted: Mon 28 Jan , 2008 12:44 am
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I'm not saying they are stupid, I'm saying there's more than enough to learn without teaching something that IS highly controversial as FACT.

And if there's a debate, that's great, except for one thing, the teacher is not ALLOWED to say they believe in anything other than evolution.. .meanwhile, there can be no classes about religion in schools...

so ultimately all debate is one sided in public schools.

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jadeval
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Posted: Mon 28 Jan , 2008 1:05 am
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I agree that the fundamentals of cell biology and reproduction, etc. are perhaps more immediate concerns for high school students. But they should be informed of the various scientific perspectives, such as abiogenesis and the general concepts of evolutionary biology. In science, theorizing that life could have arisen as a result of divine or supernatural intervention is out of the question... the method does not permit it. So teach the prevailing scientific viewpoints.

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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Mon 28 Jan , 2008 1:08 am
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Actually, we had our most glorious debates in our religion classes... Complete Manwë in our classroom, with religion and politics making one big, delicious mess.

Ah, those were the days! :love:

I know my teachers would have told us if they believed in anything other than evolution. (Though I think you'd have a very hard time finding a Norwegian biology teacher that does!) They'd have taught us what was in the books, of course, but told us what they thought themselves.

It's much like... Well, we had three teachers in political science in our school. Everyone knew what party one of them belonged to - duh, he sat in the municipal council. For Red Election Alliance, an almost-communist party. So everyone could take that into consideration when he - although with much humour (this is one of the best teachers and best men I know about!) - was "slightly biased" :P in his teachings. And we put great pressure on the two other teachers to find out where they stood on the political scale. For our own amusement, of course, but also... My point is, I think the teacher should say what they believe in - whether it be evolution or communism. I know it may be personal, but it makes it easier for the students to be critical, and it also opens for healthy debate.

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halplm
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Posted: Mon 28 Jan , 2008 1:13 am
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well, it's different in the US... teachers aren't allowed to say anything about religion... at least Christianity... or anything that might remotely be related to it...

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halplm
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Posted: Mon 28 Jan , 2008 1:14 am
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jadeval wrote:
I agree that the fundamentals of cell biology and reproduction, etc. are perhaps more immediate concerns for high school students. But they should be informed of the various scientific perspectives, such as abiogenesis and the general concepts of evolutionary biology. In science, theorizing that life could have arisen as a result of divine or supernatural intervention is out of the question... the method does not permit it. So teach the prevailing scientific viewpoints.
which is a flaw in the method... not allowing for all possabilities.

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