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Split from Campaign 2008:War On Terror and the candidates

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Split from Campaign 2008:War On Terror and the candidates
Posted: Thu 07 Feb , 2008 9:42 pm
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(Edit by the Watcher 12:54 p.m. Sunday, February 10, 2008. This thread was split at the request of the thread originator and other posters since it seems to discuss more specific issues regarding the WOT than the general US presidential 2008 campaign. I tried to include all posts that would make this sensible to try and follow. :)

TW)



McCain has lost me with his repeated references to WoT as "the transcendental challenge of the 21st century". I'm all for stopping terrorists, but of the various things that currently pose an existential threat to the US, terrorism isn't very high on the list. Unless we continue throwing more money and energy than we can afford at it.
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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 1:04 am
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McCain is simply the "lesser evil" of all the rabid fearmongers on the right.

Anyone who spreads rhetoric about terrorists wanting to take over the US, and actually having a chance in hell of doing so, is a joke in my book.

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Feredir
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 1:47 pm
 
 
Iavas_Saar wrote:
McCain is simply the "lesser evil" of all the rabid fearmongers on the right.

Anyone who spreads rhetoric about terrorists wanting to take over the US, and actually having a chance in hell of doing so, is a joke in my book.
And seven years ago you would have said that there was no way anyone could simultaneously hijack airplanes and fly them into the World Trade Centers, Pentagon, and attempt to fly them into the White House.

Trust me, I am privy to plenty of information and they will continue to try. Which is why we need to stay vigilant.

freddy
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 6:38 pm
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Planning attacks is not in the same league of taking over. It would take millions of 9/11s for the terrorists to think of the possibility of the chance of the potential to take over.

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Feredir
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 6:50 pm
 
 
And one more is two too many.


freddy
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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 6:53 pm
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But how much effort should we expend to prevent one more? Is there a limit?
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 7:16 pm
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Feredir wrote:
C_G, is there anything that makes you happy. I don't mean if this or that changed you would be happy, but is there anything currently in this country that makes you happy? Our National Park System, a sporting team, your family? You always seem so doom and gloom, it really makes me feel sorry for you. I hope this is just a misconception on my part.


freddy
I love what this country is supposed to be. The founding ideas of this country would make it easily the best country to live in, or tied for best if some other country adopted them.

I don't like where it is going. I see the government systematically betraying every foundational idea of this country.

Suppose you have a loved one who is a cocaine addict - thankfully you probably don't. Would you be showing your love by saying "I want you to stop doing that" or would you be showing your love by saying "I'll support you whatever you choose to do"?

24 good things about the United States I don't agre with ALL of them, but he does make a damn good list.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 7:35 pm
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I've been reading some of McCain's speeches and he doesn't sound like a fearmonger to me, much less rabid. And this speech on energy policy sounds just right to me. It gives me a faint glimmer of hope that a peak oil civilization crash is avoidable.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 7:41 pm
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Feredir wrote:
Iavas_Saar wrote:
McCain is simply the "lesser evil" of all the rabid fearmongers on the right.

Anyone who spreads rhetoric about terrorists wanting to take over the US, and actually having a chance in hell of doing so, is a joke in my book.
And seven years ago you would have said that there was no way anyone could simultaneously hijack airplanes and fly them into the World Trade Centers, Pentagon, and attempt to fly them into the White House.

Trust me, I am privy to plenty of information and they will continue to try. Which is why we need to stay vigilant.

freddy
Actually no I wouldn't have said that. A single attack, even a large one, is always possible. Invading/taking over the whole country? BS. As CG said it would take more 9/11s than could be counted to do that. A nuke? One nuke hits US soil and the whole Middle-east turns into dust.

Of course, try to prevent more attacks. But don't fearmonger about a struggle for the survival of the country. In a struggle for survival, 9/11 would be like an ant bite. I would like to put the fearmongers back in London during WW2 and let them feel what it would really be like to fear for the survival of your nation.

If you really fear for America's survival, you must be privy to some whacked-out information, or else can't place that information in actual reality.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 7:53 pm
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MariaHobbit wrote:
I've been reading some of McCain's speeches and he doesn't sound like a fearmonger to me, much less rabid. And this speech on energy policy sounds just right to me. It gives me a faint glimmer of hope that a peak oil civilization crash is avoidable.
In one of the debates he compared the threat to the US from terrorists to the threat to Europe from Nazi Germany. They are all fearmongers because they know that the idea of protecting the people from some horrible evil is by far the best way to maintain faith in government.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 8:24 pm
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Well I just had to look that up, and the only reference to "Nazis" I can find on his site is in this speech, where he's saying that our form of limited government is a good thing and that governments that place the state above the rights of individuals are bad.
John McCain wrote:
We are a nation that limits the reach of government because we understand that no government should have a right to impose itself between human beings and their lawful aspirations to make of their lives what they will.

We limit government because the greatness of our country, our productivity, resourcefulness and compassion, is not a product of the state's decrees or prerogatives, but derived from the free exercise of the rights and responsibilities of liberty.

We are a nation that limits government so that government cannot limit us.

I believe this notion of limited government will stand as our lasting contribution to the world. We are proof that people can frame a government to serve as an instrument of the people, not the other way around.

And by our actions both at home and abroad we will prove once more, as we did in the last century, that regimes like the Nazis, or the fascists, or the Soviet Union, or the Taliban, which place the interests of the state or a movement or a cause above the rights of the people, is on the wrong side of history.
This bit is not fear mongering, it's part of a spiel about limiting the power of government, and making sure none of the three branches of our government get more power than any other, or the system would break down.

Can you give me a full context quote about what you are talking about Iavas? I fully admit I'm just starting to learn about the man and his viewpoints, but what you are claiming he said does not seem consistant with what I've read so far.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 9:09 pm
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Feredir wrote:
And one more is two too many.
If we have to sacrifice what's left of our liberty to prevent the "one more", is it a worthwhile exchange?

Mind, that sidesteps the whole debate about why they are attacking, if the attacks can be prevented at their source by removing the "why" by doing things such as pull out of the mid-east.

People who agree with McCain (and probably McCain himself) consider the best way to stop the hornets from stinging us is to keep throwing rocks at their nest. He won't bring the troops home, which is why we will eventually have the "one more".

Meanwhile there is no "they're going to take over." Not at all. Even pulling out of the middle east won't establish sharia law here, although it will go far to preventing the remote chance of it being established.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Feredir
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 9:16 pm
 
 
yovargas wrote:
But how much effort should we expend to prevent one more? Is there a limit?
I say there cannot be a limit. Human life is too valuable.

Suppose you have a loved one who is a cocaine addict - thankfully you probably don't. Would you be showing your love by saying "I want you to stop doing that" or would you be showing your love by saying "I'll support you whatever you choose to do"?

I would shake the living crap out of them and would NEVER tell them I support their addiction that is going to destroy them and the family.

If you really fear for America's survival, you must be privy to some whacked-out information, or else can't place that information in actual reality.

Can I place it in reality, yes. Will I no.

Mind, that sidesteps the whole debate about why they are attacking, if the attacks can be prevented at their source by removing the "why" by doing things such as pull out of the mid-east.

One mere presence is not what is driving them, they (Muslim terrorists, not Muslims in general) have one goal and that is to kill or convert anyone who is not Muslim.

I'm out, see you all next week!

freddy
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Dave_LF
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 9:32 pm
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"Give me liberty or give me death," they used to say. Not so much anymore.

Should we outlaw automobiles? They've killed far more people than terrorists ever will.
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Meril36
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 9:36 pm
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Feredir wrote:
I say there cannot be a limit. Human life is too valuable.
So... does that mean that you're willing to keep throwing more human life into the meat grinder that is the current Iraq... in order to prevent the loss of more human life? I may be reading the statement in the wrong way, but your logic is lost on me.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 9:41 pm
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Quote:
Can you give me a full context quote about what you are talking about Iavas? I fully admit I'm just starting to learn about the man and his viewpoints, but what you are claiming he said does not seem consistant with what I've read so far.
It was from a clip I saw of one of the televised debates between the candidates, I could not tell you which one. McCain, out of turn, decided to attack Ron Paul's criticism of aggressive US foreign policy, saying something like

"It's that kind of isolationism, Sir, that allowed Hitler and Nazi Germany to come to power"

There could have been more to the quote, that's all I remember, but I remember Paul's response that McCain should atleast try to learn the difference between isolationism and non-intervensionism before commenting. McCain looked like a fool.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 9:47 pm
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Meril36 wrote:
Feredir wrote:
I say there cannot be a limit. Human life is too valuable.
So... does that mean that you're willing to keep throwing more human life into the meat grinder that is the current Iraq... in order to prevent the loss of more human life? I may be reading the statement in the wrong way, but your logic is lost on me.
I think he's talking about the domestic police state, not the overseas war, although they are related.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 9:49 pm
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Feredir wrote:
CG wrote:
Suppose you have a loved one who is a cocaine addict - thankfully you probably don't. Would you be showing your love by saying "I want you to stop doing that" or would you be showing your love by saying "I'll support you whatever you choose to do"?
I would shake the living crap out of them and would NEVER tell them I support their addiction that is going to destroy them and the family.
In other words, you would take a negative tone, like I do.
Feredir wrote:
CG wrote:
Mind, that sidesteps the whole debate about why they are attacking, if the attacks can be prevented at their source by removing the "why" by doing things such as pull out of the mid-east.
One mere presence is not what is driving them, they (Muslim terrorists, not Muslims in general) have one goal and that is to kill or convert anyone who is not Muslim.
The 9/11 commission report disagrees with you.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 9:51 pm
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Feredir wrote:
yovargas wrote:
But how much effort should we expend to prevent one more? Is there a limit?
I say there cannot be a limit. Human life is too valuable.

But....you're saying 100% of our tax dollars should go to defense. Which you can't possible mean. :neutral:
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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Fri 08 Feb , 2008 9:58 pm
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Quote:
If you really fear for America's survival, you must be privy to some whacked-out information, or else can't place that information in actual reality.

Can I place it in reality, yes. Will I no.
???
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One mere presence is not what is driving them, they (Muslim terrorists, not Muslims in general) have one goal and that is to kill or convert anyone who is not Muslim.
I like how everything is so black-and-white to those who are the most pessimistic about the threat of Terrorists/Extremists/Islamofascists/Islamonazis.

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