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African American Genealogy

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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: African American Genealogy
Posted: Fri 15 Feb , 2008 4:32 am
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I don't expect that this will generate a huge discussion, but I just wanted to talk about this. I've caught a few episodes of this show on PBS, African American Lives. Wow, is it interesting!

Has anyone else seen it? It explores the genealogy of famous black Americans, including Oprah, Morgan Freeman, Chris Rock, Maya Angelou, etc.

A few things I found particularly interesting (that might generate some discussion):

I was surprised by the instances of free blacks living in America prior to the Civil War. That happened in several cases and some were fascinating stories. Many had been freed upon the death of their owner. One family (can't remember in whose genealogy it was) was freed when the slaveowner died, and he willed them 1000 acres, I think. This was in Virginia, where free blacks were not allowed to live. The family petitioned the Virginian government and were permitted to live on their land till the slaveowner's widow died. Once she died, however, they were supposed to leave. When she did die, they petitioned the government again and were denied permission to remain on their land.

End of story? No, actually. :) Tax records from subsequent years showed this family still on their land, still paying taxes, etc. How? The white families in the area protected them, so that they could remain on the land that was willed to them.

I thought that was cool.

What was sad was the precarious societal position these freed blacks were in. Without proper papers on them at all times (and even sometimes with them), they could be taken back into slavery.

Of course, it was very sad and sobering to see the faces of these celebrities (these people) when they saw their ancestors listed as property, "owned" by another person. It was just awful.

One lady, Linda Johnson Rice, had an ancestor who was sold away from his mother when he was 8. :bawl:

With Oprah, they were able to trace her family back to Africa, to the specific tribe, even. That was awesome!

So I guess any thoughts on ancestry would be welcome here or whatever. If you don't know about your ancestry, what is the significance of that? What if you're uncertain about your ancestry? How does that make you feel? What does knowing where you came from do for a person? What would not knowing that do to a person, to a people group?

The show is just neat. Tracing lineage for African Americans is notoriously difficult for obvious reasons, but it was cool to see how far back they could go in many cases (and sad when they couldn't get past the property records of a slaveowner).

Sobering. But fascinating, too.


Lali

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Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject: Re: African American Genealogy
Posted: Fri 15 Feb , 2008 11:52 am
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LalaithUrwen wrote:
End of story? No, actually. :) Tax records from subsequent years showed this family still on their land, still paying taxes, etc. How? The white families in the area protected them, so that they could remain on the land that was willed to them.

I thought that was cool.
Really cool. :cool:
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Of course, it was very sad and sobering to see the faces of these celebrities (these people) when they saw their ancestors listed as property, "owned" by another person. It was just awful.
:( Indeed. It's absolutely devastating, to find that kind of thing out.

Slavery was -and is - monstrous. :rage:

We had a great programme here, Who Do You Think You Are? in which various famous TV people went in search of their roots. I'd had no idea that Stephen Fry was of Jewish descent. :) He's soooo English. :D When he discovered that some of his relatives on the German-Jewish side had perished in the Holocaust, he wept and wept. It was such a horrible shock for him to see, as he put it, "that fucking word, Auschwitz, over and over again ..." :(

As an adopted person, these issues are a real hot potato for me. It is VITAL that people know who they are and where they came from. Absolutely vital. As a white middle-class Englishwoman adopted by another white middle-class family (I traced my birth mother 11 years ago) I had it bloody lucky, I tell ya.

As a teenager, you look into the mirror and you think: "who am I? Whose genes are in my blood? Who gave me that half-blue, half-brown eye? Where did I COME from?" And what looks back at you is a mystery. :neutral: And it feels empty. :neutral: However happy a relationship you have with your adopted family (and they don't come much better than mine). :neutral:

These issues are even more amplified in transracial adoptions. Let me be clear: a loving white family is tons, tons, TONS better than being stuck in care for years. :rage: Any loving family is better than that. ONE loving parent is better than that. But the issues must be faced. If you are a black or Asian adoptee in a white family, you will have bigger issues of identity to cope with than someone like me, who naturally blended into her adoptive family.

But, to take the even bigger perspective on this, when whole races have been oppressed and deprived of their rightful identity and their human rights - :rage: - then you are talking about a huge collective trauma which reverberates down the generations. :neutral:

There has been a tiny minority of Black people living in England since Elizabethan times. Their history has been fairly invisible, of course. :roll: But they were definitely here. All the trading routes that opened up ... this was BEFORE the slave trade really got under way.

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Leoba
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Posted: Fri 15 Feb , 2008 1:22 pm
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I remember watching an excellent episode the BBC's "Who do you think you are?", featuring the athlete, Colin Jackson. they started investigating his family background in Jamaica and Panama and even did a DNA test to look at his genetic make-up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/familyhist ... y_04.shtml
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So I guess any thoughts on ancestry would be welcome here or whatever. If you don't know about your ancestry, what is the significance of that? What if you're uncertain about your ancestry? How does that make you feel? What does knowing where you came from do for a person? What would not knowing that do to a person, to a people group?
I'm lucky - I know where most strands of my family come from: in the case of my paternal line, from a small village less than a hour north of where I live now. On all sides, they are almost all English in so far as the records go back, though we suspect a touch of Welsh may have snuck in at one point.

I certainly feel as though I belong here; belonging and feeling secure are so important to me that I cannot imagine growing up without that stability and sense of being a part of the land I grew up in.

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Fri 15 Feb , 2008 1:53 pm
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I have mixed feelings, to be honest. I'm as curious about my ancestry as anyone else, but when I see people holding grudges against each other for generations, I can't help but wonder if we'd be better off remembering the past in a less personal fashion. There's still enough latent anger over both black slavery and the Civil War in the US to make me doubt it's a good idea going out of your way to poke at those things. But... if I suspected my forebears had been slaves a mere 5 or 6 generations back, I'd probably try to find out anyway, so I can't really blame anyone.


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laureanna
Post subject: Re: African American Genealogy
Posted: Fri 15 Feb , 2008 3:00 pm
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Di of Long Cleeve wrote:
When he discovered that some of his relatives on the German-Jewish side had perished in the Holocaust, he wept and wept. It was such a horrible shock for him to see, as he put it, "that fucking word, Auschwitz, over and over again ..." :(
In an ideal world we would all weep at that word, even if we weren't related to the people who died.

It was a little disturbing to read about my ancestry on my maternal grandfather's side. A distant cousin had followed some lines back 13 generations in America. There were three sets of "kissing cousins" - first cousin marriages - in Appalachia. I looked some of them up in the census rolls, and found one was a slave holder, though a poor one - just 6 slaves. It somehow makes me feel a little closer to that part of history, and a little sadder.

What interests me more is the concept of race. In the south, if your blood was "colored" by non-White ancestors, even if only one eighth, you were considered "Colored". Even today, people who are half or quarter Black are generally called Black. Tiger Woods, half Black and half Asian, is never called Asian. People who are of mixed race must decide if they want to take the "Black" label or not - there is no "part-Black" in our culture.

Which leads me to my racial identification. My great grandmother Agnes was Tlingit Indian, and treated like a dog by the white culture there. My great grandfather John did marry her, but only after she'd had three kids by three different men in the logging camp where she worked as a "housekeeper". She had two more kids by by great grandfather, including my grandmother Lucy. All five children were spread to the wind, after Lucy died, going to live with various Indian relatives. From age 7, Lucy lived as a servant for an Indian family and went to an Indian trade school. She was half Indian, half White, but treated as an Indian and pariah by Whites. She eventually married a White man (or in Tlingit "Dleit Ka" - a snowman). My mom, Jan, was technically 1/4 Indian, but would have been treated as an Indian, and sent to and Indians-only school (separate and distinctly not equal) if she'd stayed in Alaska. So the family moved to California, where Lucy and Jan were discriminated against for being Asian, because they looked Asian. Grandma Lucy refused to say anything about her culture and did not knowingly pass any along to my mom. She was "an American" and that was that. So at 1/4 Tlingit, raised "White", was my mom White or Indian? She was pretty much put in the "Indian" or "non-white" slot by all those around her.

So what does that make me? I have a father who is White from a long line of Whites and a mother who is Indian, from a long line of Indians. Does either line break with me? In later years, our family explored the Tlingit Indian culture with elders and got to know and love it. My brother produces radio programs of American Indian and Alaskan Native music, and identifies himself as Tlingit. I've learned a little of the language (extremely hard!) and art, and consider myself both Tlingit and White, and will list myself as Mixed Race if given that option. I went to tribal gatherings when in Alaska, but always felt like a fringe member. Most of the people there were clearly full or half blood Indian, and had grown up with the culture, but at the expense of an entire lifetime of second class citizenship (or no citizenship) and discrimination. Who was I to think that I could claim membership, as a "stealth" person of color? I'm more comfortable with tribal meetings here in California, where most of the other members are mixed race as well, and more inclusive.

As you say, Lali, it's all quite fascinating to think about.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 15 Feb , 2008 3:25 pm
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When we went to Barbados, I noticed that many of the black people there had rather prominent, rounded foreheads. Some of the tourist literature I read said that being so much farther east, most slaver ships stopped at Barbados first and the plantation ownners got their pick of the cargo, and from the look of the descendants, they were probably picking a particular tribe or physical type.

It makes for a slightly different phenotype there. It's not universal, of course, but was noticable in many of the women especially.

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vison
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Posted: Fri 15 Feb , 2008 4:47 pm
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My husband and I watched 2 episodes of this program the other night. It was riveting! And yet it was heartbreaking, too. I can only try to imagine what it must have felt like for Morgan Freeman and Chris Rock and the others, these successful proud people, to think of their ancestors being chained up and sold like cattle.

I think I would try to say to myself, "I should be really proud of what I've accomplished and if my ggggrandfather could see what I've done, he'd be proud, too."

Another thought I had was how much slaves were sold for: many for over $1,000. In those days, $1,000 was like at least $100,000 now. The wealth of the great slaveowning families is staggering to realize.

Many of us "white" people whose ancestors came to Canada or the US came from dreadful poverty. In the early days many were bondservants, or exiled as convicts. The Irish, escaping the famine, were as near to being actual slaves as any European of that era. But none of my people, as far as I know, came as chattels on board a ship from Africa.

Another thing that struck me was the honesty of the host pointing out that Africans sold other Africans into slavery, it wasn't just white men catching people unaware.

I admire Oprah and the others who let themselves be the subjects of these programs. Good for them.

Some years ago there was a documentary about Cheddar, in England. A mummified corpse was found in a cave or somewhere. Scientists were able to extract DNA and then they tried to find a descendant of Cheddar Man in the local schools. It turned out a history teacher was a descendant and the man didn't appear to be particularly impressed. I would have been, to realize that my family had lived in the same place for 9,000 years!!!!

The First Nations people here have lived along the Fraser for at least 9,000 years. I think that's cool.

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 3:25 am
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Wow! That is all really cool! Thanks to everyone for their posts.

Laureanna, wow. I can identify to a very small extent. My great-grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee. Another ancestor (great-great grandmother, I think) was a full-blooded Chickasaw. I love Native American culture but would feel like a definite outsider trying to get involved in their culture now. Unfortunately. :(

vison, I would have been so impressed to find out that I was related to a 9000 year-old mummy!


Lali

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TheMary
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 3:50 am
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Interesting topic Lali! I haven't seen the show you mentioned but will be on the look out to catch it sometime.

I don't know anything about my ancestry except that I'm fifth generation Irish, German, and Croatian. I am curious to know more about my family but wouldn't know how to go about it without drilling family members :D.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 3:55 am
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Well, as much as I will admit to being a full out genealogy geek, I cannot say that I have learned anything really upsetting about my ancestral background, except to say they all seemed to be mostly Northern European or British Isles nobodies. I do seem to find that my one gggrandmother might have converted from Judaism to Unitarianism when she and her husband emmigrated here from whatever part of Germany, but that is only based on her maiden name, which tends at least here in Milwaukee to be one associated with Germanic-BJewish families. toherwise, it is all people moving away from Europe for whatever reasons. My huge amount of Irish ancestors seemed to all move to America well before the potato famines, so I am guessing it was for religious persecutions or just plain being poor. The Pennsylvania Dutch branch is well documented back to the 1600's or so, but nobody knows why they eventually moved here. Another branch is Scots- Irish, who I thought were true Scots, but it turns out they emmigrated from Ulster around 1790. That bunch were definitely NOT Catholic!! :D

As unrelated as this might be to actual factual research, I DID just watch that fictionalized story about Sally Heming, the 3/4 white to 1/4 black "slave" that Thomas Jefferson "owned" and who is rumored to be a father to some of her offspring, although it is equally likely that Jefferson's own nephews may have been the fathers. In any case, it was a great biopic, and it did bring home how odd colonial America viewed people of color, even when they were not any longer technically "slaves." Saddening, just as much as it was with all of the various native American groups out there now trying to correct history. On a related note, I would dearly love to delve into my kids' genealogy before too many avenues on the fathers side get lost, there are some fascinating leads there as well. I think knowing about your past is greatly informative, at least it has been for me. I disproved my own father about our surname,and I have the evidence to prove it!! It is odd now that he was proved incorrect, he claims no interest in the field. Although his sister, my geeky aunt, gloms on to every tidbit I unearth. ah, who knows, even current family members all want their own take on things it seems. :blackeye: :scratch:

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Dindraug
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Posted: Sun 02 Mar , 2008 5:48 pm
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vison wrote:

Some years ago there was a documentary about Cheddar, in England. A mummified corpse was found in a cave or somewhere. Scientists were able to extract DNA and then they tried to find a descendant of Cheddar Man in the local schools. It turned out a history teacher was a descendant and the man didn't appear to be particularly impressed. I would have been, to realize that my family had lived in the same place for 9,000 years!!!!
Its less impressive when you investigate it. The teachers ancesters had arrived in what would become Britain 9000 years go. They had children, and thire ancesters thrived. Then came sucessive waves of settlers, each of who breed into the root stock, but the root stock did not leave or die out. They continued.

That is the thing with settlements, which is facinating. No invader has ever sucessfully wiped out a population. Even the Holocaust did not wipe out the European Jew and that is the closest we have had in history to a true genocide. The idea that invaders kill everybody and then settle in thier abandoned homes is non-sensicle.

Invading armies want women and land, mostly. They replace the top echalon of society and marry the young women, convert the people to thier faith, build symbols and turn the men into farmers/producers for them.

Take the English....

Your average English man is only about 10-15% Anglo-Saxon, or Anglo-Dane. They will be decended from a whole slew of settlers, from the late Neolithic's through to the recent set of emigrees.

It always amuses me to hear people being amazed to have French ancestry when a huge amount of French come over here in the revolutionary period.

Same with the Celt, your average English man is something like 20-25% Celt, probably more. He may have some minor Norman/French blood, but is more likely to have Dutch or German from traders over the past thousand years. But at the root, he will probably be something like 40-50% decended from the Neolithic hunters who sttled these shores so long ago.

(By the way, not totally sure about the figures, they are from memory, before you ask)

On my own part I am nominally English, which probably menas that a significant portion of my ancestry has been here for thousands of years but we know next to nothing about thier culture, which is sad. I have Welsh ancestry, so Celtic blood stirs in my veins just like it does anybody else of North European ancestry. There is also a Jewish link, but that is buried somewhere in the mists of time so that only a name survives. Oh, and an odd figure who appeared on the Welsh borders and could be anything really.

But facinating.

It would be really interesting to be able to have this discussion in about 200 years time. In the UK, we have a lot of Black, Asian and East European settlers at the moment. Many are now in third generation, which means intergration into local bloodlines. There are huge issues with this still socially but there are already people who you cannot tell from the root stock. It would just be interesting to see what we are like when this wave is over.

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vison
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Posted: Sun 02 Mar , 2008 7:37 pm
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Well, I can only say that it was extremely COOL to see that man was descended directly from Cheddar Man. After all, he might have old roots there without Cheddar Man being his ancestor. Not likely, given how few people there were in those days, 9,000 years ago, but still, it was fascinating.

Most of our ancestors didn't go far from where they were born. But some did, mostly involuntarily, as captives of raiders, etc.

A truly, truly interesting thing: something like 0.25 to 0.50 % of the WORLD's population is descended from Genghis Khan. I can't sort the link out right now, but that has got to be amazing. He had children by hundreds, if not thousands, of women. And many Swiss and other Western Europeans carry, in the form of a discolouration of the skin on their lower backs, the mark of Attilla's Huns.

Ah, so here we are: Genghis Khan

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yovargas
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I've wondered on occasion what man has reproduced the most in history. It'd be entirely possible for some man in a position with enough power and inclination to have sex with a different woman (or two or three) pretty much every day for a few decades, so it's easy to imagine some particularly fertile man having thousands of offspring. I wonder if anyone has ever hit the 5-digit mark...that'd be quite the feat!


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vison
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It was neat watching the documentary about Genghis Khan. The men who were DNA tested were so PROUD to be his descendants!!! He was quite the boyo, ol' Genghis.

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Estel
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vison wrote:
The Irish, escaping the famine, were as near to being actual slaves as any European of that era.
Actually, the Irish were actual slaves for quite some time. In the mid-1600's the main slaves sold to areas in the West Indies were Irish. At one point, Ireland, not Africa, was the largest source for the English slave trade.
linky wrote:
In the 12 year period during and following the Confederation revolt, from 1641 to 1652, over 550,000 Irish were killed by the English and 300,000 were sold as slaves, as the Irish population of Ireland fell from 1,466,000 to 616,000.
That wasn't even the worst of it. Follow the link.

I remember first learning about this in a University class and being quite shocked. It's not just African Americans who have a history of being sold and owned.


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Berhael
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Speaking of Genghis Khan, my son has at least a drop of blood from his; he has a Mongolian blue spot on his lower back, which most Asian children have, but is quite rare in white European babies. Apparently it's more common in children of mixed parentage, but both Dan and I are Spanish (he's half French, but neither he nor his brothers had a blue spot), so it's just those pesky Mongolian genes surfacing generation after generation. :D

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Rinon
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Well, I haven't really participated around these parts in a long time, but I'm a bit of a geneology geek as well, although I know very little about it.

As far as I can tell, my maternal Grandfather was a German admixture, and my maternal Grandma is three quarters Irish and one quarter Scottish. Until a few generations ago they were all coal miners in Northeastern Pennsylvania. On my dad's sad, my paternal Grandma is 100% Irish by way of Canada, and my paternal Grandfather is half Sicilian and half Croatian. I can trace my name back, before it was Anglocized, to a small town in Sicily using Google, and I can also trace my Great-Grandmother's maiden name back to a Croatian/Slovene border town. It's all I know though... Id really like to find out more. But I have a copy of Great-Grandpa Stefano's certificate of naturalization, and the poor guy was only 5'5".

I couldn't even imagine what it would be like to hear about my ancestors being enslaved, and having to be on national television at the same time... Talk about an absolutely horrible thing, and one of the many cases where bigots claim a moral high ground when in actuality they are in a moral hell. :-/


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Pippin4242
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Posted: Mon 03 Mar , 2008 12:47 am
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Rin wrote:
I have a copy of Great-Grandpa Stefano's certificate of naturalization, and the poor guy was only 5'5".
That'd be pretty tall in my family. :P

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Leoba
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Rinon wrote:
and the poor guy was only 5'5".
What's so 'poor' about that? Much taller and you'd bang your head on our light fittings!

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