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Northern Illinois University Shootings

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TheMary
Post subject: Northern Illinois University Shootings
Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 12:03 am
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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This is a little too close to home :(. My younger brother attended NIU last year before I stole him away to California. Thank the lord I did I don't know what I would have done had he been there when this happened. I've been to NIU many many times and know lots of people who've attended and graduated. Thankfully all of my brothers friends are safe but one of them was supposed to be in Cole Hall had she not missed the bus. 5 other students weren't so fortunate.

6 people are dead including the shooter by suicide. They can't seem to figure out why he did it except perhaps he'd gone off his meds.

You can find stories about this on CNN.com or any major news channel.

:(

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DoTheyGandalf
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 12:54 am
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I'm still in shock about it. I was slow to realize that it wasn't an old shooting, but something that has recently occurred.

I'm glad everyone you know is safe, TM. Say hi to Dan for me.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 1:16 am
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TM -

Yeah, it was a bit close to home for me as well, my s-i-l is from Champaign, although now long out of college, so nobody I know now attends there.

What seems so terrifying is that the shooter was applauded while he attended NIU as being nothing but the cream of the crop. Except for his meds issues, there are no reasons being provided what on earth went wrong and set him off, it is not even as if he seemingly had any connections to this particular class or classroom or any sort of link at all to people who would have been there.

Sometimes, the world just makes you want to cringe and hide. Heck, if the guy wanted to off himself, that is tragic enough, but when these people lash out at totally innocents for their final blaze of revenge or glory or whatever it is inside their really messed up minds, it makes us realize how far we have to come.

:( :( :(

Last edited by The Watcher on Sat 16 Feb , 2008 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TheMary
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 1:23 am
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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That's what I don't get at all TW! I hate when the gunman commits suicide AFTER killing a bunch of people. Why not just save everyone the grief and off yourself first? So selfish and wrong. The odd thing is my older brother went to U of I where the gunman had been working before he drove 3 hours to shoot up NIU.

I never worried about school shootings while I was in school, for some reason, even though Columbine was during my school days, but after I graduated I was worried for my brother's safety. Ug, it's terrible to have to worry about someones safety at school.

Dan says Hi DTG :) Good to see you btw :hug:

_________________

Lay down
Your sweet and weary head
Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


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DoTheyGandalf
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 5:15 am
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TheMary wrote:
Dan says Hi DTG :) Good to see you btw :hug:
Nice to see you too :) Nice to be back for a bit. :hug:


I wish people had less access to guns. I don't even know how that would work out, but it seems they get into the wrong hands a lot of the time.

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Mossy: i can just see you being one of those cool teachers who brings in a koala and a criminal when the class is learning about australia
Mossy: "Hi class! Today we're learning about Australia. See this man in the orange jumpsuit? His name is Frank and he's visiting us from jail today! Now, can anyone tell me what our friend Frank has to do with today's lesson?"
Elian wrote:
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halplm
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 7:36 am
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it's not guns, it's people who are insane, and other people that don't know how to deal with that insanity.

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jewelsong
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 8:22 am
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halplm wrote:
it's not guns, it's people who are insane, and other people that don't know how to deal with that insanity.
In this case, it was guns.

From everything I have read about this shooting, the guy showed no sign of mental illness or insanity to be "dealt with" beforehand and after it started, the police were on the scene in less than 60 seconds. There was no way to "deal" with it.

Bottom line is that if this guy had not had easy access to a gun, this tragedy would not have happened. Period.


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halplm
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 9:18 am
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wrong, he just would have done it another way

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jewelsong
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 10:47 am
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Not wrong.

Doing it "another way" would not have involved a gun. A knife, a brick, even if he had a bomb strapped to him - it would have been easier to disarm him and less carnage would have occurred.

A gun can kill from a distance, unlike a knife or a brick. Had he not been thus armed, it would have been more difficult for him.

It is the easy, almost nonchalant access to guns that allows these things to occur more frequently and more easily.

In other words, he might have "just done it another way" but almost any "other way" would have been less devastating.


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halplm
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 10:51 am
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agree to disagree then

if insane people want to kill others, they will, he could have poisoned a thousand people if he wanted to... maybe him wanting to do it with a gun saved hundreds of lives

or maybe, if his doctor had actually listened to him, instead of expecting the medication of the day to cure him he could have gotten the help he needed.

no one can know in hindsite, but thousand and thousands of people own guns that aren't insane, and depriving them of that right won't stop the insane ones from going insane and killing people.

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jewelsong
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 11:33 am
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I am not advocating depriving people of the right to own guns.

I am advocating a more reasoned and measured approach to obtaining a gun. Right now almost anyone can legally guy a gun, with no waiting period and no background check. You can't drive a car without taking a test and getting a license.

The thing about violence with a gun is that it is immediate. Sure, he could have poisoned a thousand people, but that would have taken a great deal more planning than it did to buy a gun, burst into a room and shooting randomly. There would be a greater possibility of stopping him, or of him not being able to follow through, or of his plans being discovered. Do you see what I am trying to say here?

Your comment about the doctor not listening to him is interesting. Did you read something about his medical condition? Did his doctor ignore him? Or are you just making an assumption, based on your own prejudice against using any kind of medication for mental illness?


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Pippin4242
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 5:16 pm
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jewelsong wrote:
I am not advocating depriving people of the right to own guns.
Well I certainly am, and I do apologise for the derailment, but in 2004 11,624 people were killed in the USA in homicides with a gun as the murder weapon, and 649 from "unintentional shootings". In England and Wales the total was 50. You are not safer with legalised arsenals around you. It is absolutely delusional to suggest otherwise.

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Crucifer
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 7:04 pm
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:yes:

I mean, what do you need a gun for? Hunting, ok, great. Get a hunting license, get a gun. Fine. But why in Gods name would anyone just want a gun lying around the house? Self-defense? We have any number of blunt objects around the house that could be used for the same purpose. Recreation? We have TV, books etc. Society doesn't need guns. OK, so society doesn't need TV either, for example, but you can't go kill a load of people with a TV. Even the police in Ireland don't have guns. (unless they're special police) They're the "Gardaí Síochána", which literally translates as Gaurdians of the Peace. So the don't create more strife by bearing highly dangerous weaponry.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that a gun is a weapon that is designed to kill. They shouldn't be given to anyone who can afford one.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 7:32 pm
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To make matters worse, both the NIU shooter and the one at Virginia Tech were able to go online to order their guns, I guess the only condition is that you must go in person at the local dealer to pick them up.

Getting a gun here is about as easy as getting a barely valid prescription for painkillers, maybe even easier. To be blunt, I would prefer that these individuals did the latter as opposed to the former, cynic that I am.

But I refuse to get into another stalemated argument over gun "rights" here in America. I need no convincing that something is seriously wrong, but, there are way too many others who do not agree in this country. :shrug:

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Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 miles per second, is a cow that has been dropped from a helicopter.

Never under any circumstances take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

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Glaciers melting in the dead of night and the superstars sucked into the supermassive...
Supermassive Black Hole.

- Muse


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Feredir
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 8:23 pm
 
 
jewelsong wrote:
halplm wrote:
it's not guns, it's people who are insane, and other people that don't know how to deal with that insanity.
In this case, it was guns.

From everything I have read about this shooting, the guy showed no sign of mental illness or insanity to be "dealt with" beforehand and after it started, the police were on the scene in less than 60 seconds. There was no way to "deal" with it.

Bottom line is that if this guy had not had easy access to a gun, this tragedy would not have happened. Period.
This is not true. We keep hearing how they (I would have to assume friends) say that he was acting strangely days before and was off his medication. The only way to know this is if someone made notice of it. He also has a long history of mental illness and was even institutionalized for some time. Why didn't someone act, I handle calls like this all the time.

This is not necessarily a break down in gun laws, it's exactly what happened VT, a lack of communication between mental health institutions and the Gov't to deny this person a firearm. The only question that is asked when you buy a gun is if you have ever been adjudicated as mentally impaired, not thorough enough.

Everyone knows my stance on gun rights and I don't want to get involved in a discussion about that (Lali will KILL me :help: ).

It's hard to explain why US citizens are so defensive of the 2nd Amendment but I guess it is because we don't want to see any of our rights taken away by the actions of others.

BTW, seven people were killed in an illegal drag race in Maryland. Same number of people killed, still just as tragic.


freddy


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The Watcher
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 8:53 pm
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Freddy -

You raise valid questions, and as a police officer, if someone had contacted you and said this individual was acting "erratically" or "strangely" or refused to take his meds, there would be nothing legally that you could even do about it.

You could not force him to do anything, I doubt you could invade his privacy to see if he WAS a registered firearms owner, although that might be something that you would have access to, but, just imagine what a bogdown we would have in our police departments if anyone who someone else deemed "at risk" without a real reason to suspect something might occur had to be followed up on.

You probably know all too well the cases of domestic abuse or "kids gone bad" or even adults at risk for past or current circumstances where people are left frantic without real recourse.

I offer no answers. One thing I think is insane, however, is to allow people to preorder weapons like Glock handguns online, and then merely have to go through some cursory paperwork to complete the sale and pick them up. The NIU shooter ordered his guns on 2/9 and was able to get them by 2/12. Surely as a law official, you see some issues with such an easy system?

I really cannot get my head around how easy we make it in this country for people to purchase firearms. It makes absolutely NO SENSE!!

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Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 miles per second, is a cow that has been dropped from a helicopter.

Never under any circumstances take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

- Dave Barry


Glaciers melting in the dead of night and the superstars sucked into the supermassive...
Supermassive Black Hole.

- Muse


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halplm
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 9:29 pm
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Pips, Crucifer... anyone else that wants to throw out warped statistics...

look at Switzerland. Really look.

It's NOT THE GUNS.

Is there a problem? Yes. Is it too easy for bad people to get guns? yes. But that's because it's too easy for bad people to do just about anything they want.

That's one of the tradoffs we make for all the freedoms we have. Similar tradeoffs are made to lesser and greater extents around the world.

Personally, I think the problem in the US is a culture ignoring personal responsability... but that might just be me...

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Crucifer
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Posted: Sat 16 Feb , 2008 9:31 pm
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Yes, but Switzerland isn't living in fear of constant terrorist attack, Mexicans taking over, China, Russia etc., so the answer to everything isn't "better get a gun".

Plus, in Switzerland, it's nowhere near as easy to get a gun as it is in the US. There's proper psychological testing and things.

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Feredir
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Posted: Sun 17 Feb , 2008 1:24 am
 
 
TW, if we come into contact with someone who is having a psychological break of some sort it is fairly easy to get them into a hospital. Now what the docs do is out of my control. There are something like six catagories that I can put someone in for an involuntary admission and then it is up to the hospital to decide if they stay. One of those is if they present a risk to themselves or others. So as you can see, there is no involvment in the legal system (other than the PD).

As for the mail ordering of a gun. It still has to go through the same checks as someone coming in off the street and wanting to buy a gun. If there had been cross checks into mental health records he would have been denied. This would be very easy to do but you will have an extremely hard time getting the medical community to do this because they are extremely protective of records, even if you have a court order.

freddy


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Feredir
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Posted: Sun 17 Feb , 2008 1:27 am
 
 
Crucifer wrote:
Yes, but Switzerland isn't living in fear of constant terrorist attack, Mexicans taking over, China, Russia etc., so the answer to everything isn't "better get a gun".

Plus, in Switzerland, it's nowhere near as easy to get a gun as it is in the US. There's proper psychological testing and things.
I really don't think that is what most people think in the US either. I come into contact with just as many people who won't get one as that will.

BTW, I also don't think we fear Russia or China, or think that the Illegal Immigrants are going to take over.

freddy


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