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Northern Illinois University Shootings

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Riverthalos
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Posted: Sun 17 Feb , 2008 4:17 am
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Some information regarding the shooter here.

Some highlights:
- He was hospitalized after graduating HS in 1998 for mental issues.
- He spent six months in the Army and got a mental health discharge
- He had a brief stint as a prison guard that ended when he didn't show up for work
- He was involved with a woman, the relationship is reported to be rocky and abusive (with him being on the delivering end)
- He was on meds but he went off them a couple weeks ago and his behavior went really erratic
- He was a grad student in sociology studying crime
- His profs described him as brilliant
- He was NOT a loner
- Everyone thought he was a nice and stable guy

And:
Quote:
On Feb. 9, Kazmierczak walked into a Champaign gun store and picked up two guns — a Remington shotgun and a Glock 9mm handgun. He bought the two other handguns at the same shop — a Hi-Point .380 on Dec. 30 and a Sig Sauer on Aug. 6.

All four guns were bought legally from a federally licensed firearms dealer, said Thomas Ahern, a spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. At least one criminal background check was performed — Kazmierczak had no criminal record.

Kazmierczak had a state police-issued FOID, a firearms owners identification card, which is required in Illinois to own a gun, authorities said. Such cards are rarely issued to those with recent mental health problems. And since Kazmierczak's stay in the mental health center was more than five years ago, it didn't raise red flags.
Emphasis mine.

We tend to look at these shooting incidents on a case by case basis, but I'm not sure that's right. This happens too often to just be a bunch of isolated incidents. It seems to me that these shootings are a symptom of some larger problem, some sickness in our society. We point our fingers in all the usual places - gun laws, mental health issues, violent video games, etc., but I'm not convinced that the cause is in these things. I have a feeling that there is some sort of deeper corruption. My boyfriend and I were talking about this last night, and we were thinking that maybe part of the problem is the mad rush of consumerism that's taken hold of the country. Everybody's running around buying crap and making money to buy more crap because they believe having crap will make them happy. People get so wrapped up in the value of money that they forget that there is another kind of currency, a kind that is so greatly under-valued in the US that some of you reading this probably rolled your eyes without even stopping to consider what I'm getting at. There's something fundamentally missing in our lives. We let the advertisers define success for us, and they defined it as having stuff, but having stuff isn't very fulfilling. Making things with your hands can be fulfilling. Learning something new can be fulfilling. Serving a community or teaching can be fulfilling. But how valued are service and teaching? How valued is learning? How valued is making things (and I'm covering the gamut, from fields to factory floors to art studios, writing desks and so on)? We like to brag about how little sleep we get and how hard we work and while a strong work ethic made this country strong, that work ethic made us strong because we were producing things with it, not just running around to spend more. There's some sort of quality that life used to have, and still has in other parts of the world, that we don't. That quality is what I call the under-valued currency. And, in general terms, America is poor in that quality and it's ripping people apart.

Anyway, that's my rant. For the record, I'm getting by on the standard currency we're all busting our butts for (it helps that I'm just not into the whole consumer thing - otherwise, on my stipend, I'd be effing miserable), and quite poor in the other kind. I've spent so much of it, the other kind, on grad school. It's been driving me batty. In recent months I've realized why I've been going batty and taken steps to recover some of that quality. Life has been getting better, but it's going to take some time to recover all the soul grad school ate, if I ever do. In the meantime, because I've put the brakes on myself going batty, I am now driving my adviser batty. Better him than me. He's already nuts. A little more nuts won't hurt.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Sun 17 Feb , 2008 4:49 am
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Rio -

I would buy your theory, but it is nothing new. Sorry! I was in my college years when inflation hit double digits. Gas and gold prices were out of this world, interest rates were at 14% on home mortgages. Oh, what was this wonderful time period to live in? It was called Reaganomics. Well, that might be a bit unfair, he only started it well after he was in office, which was about two years later.

What HAS changed over the last two or three decades is

1. -the power of the media to be everywhere and all over the place (not in always a good way)

2. - a more splintered and fractious populace. Everyone now has their own agenda, and we all think they warrant equal time. "I" am just as important as anyone else out there and I damn well deserve my time to achieve it.

3. - we live insane lives, trying to be everything for every situation or place or circumstance, and, frankly, most of us simply cannot and do not want this sort of life. But, it somehow is becoming expected of us all if we want to "succeed."

4. Repeat steps 1, 2 and 3 over and over again.

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Riverthalos
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Posted: Sun 17 Feb , 2008 5:18 am
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But what is success? Who defines it and why?

Yes, I have to ask. I have to ask because I was raised without television and don't own one even now. This has put considerable limits on the mass media I consume and in many ways I'm out of the loop. I know how I define successful, but I've a feeling that the bulk of the rest of the US is on a different metric.

BTW, I'm not saying that today's circumstances are new. The consumer culture began in the 1920's. The Great Depression and WWII put a damper on things, but after that we were off and running. What I'm getting at is we may have reached a tipping point - you can be infected without being symptomatic until the germ-load reaches a certain level and then you start to feel like crap. I think that's why we're having all these shoot-ups now - whatever it is that has infected our culture has reached the level where the symptoms are showing...and getting very hard to ignore.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Sun 17 Feb , 2008 5:45 am
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When it is a matter of seconds ... police are only minutes away. This shooting is yet another victory for gun control - nobody was able to defend themselvs.

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Mon 18 Feb , 2008 2:21 pm
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Violent crime is lower in per-capita terms right now than it was in the 60's-80s and continues to fall, even as population densities continue to grow. The "uptrend" is in reporting, not shooting. I'm not aware of any statistics regarding the rate of random violent crime; I wouldn't be surprised if that did show an uptrend, though.


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Crucifer
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Posted: Mon 18 Feb , 2008 8:25 pm
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Quote:
Crucifer wrote:
Yes, but Switzerland isn't living in fear of constant terrorist attack, Mexicans taking over, China, Russia etc., so the answer to everything isn't "better get a gun".
Plus, in Switzerland, it's nowhere near as easy to get a gun as it is in the US. There's proper psychological testing and things.


I really don't think that is what most people think in the US either. I come into contact with just as many people who won't get one as that will.

BTW, I also don't think we fear Russia or China, or think that the Illegal Immigrants are going to take over.
Just to clarify., I know you, and indeed, the vast majority of Americans don't think this. But I've come across some people, via the web, my American relatives and tourists here in Ireland, who have got irrational fears of just about anything they don't see as "American". One woman said she refused to eat tacos unless they were good wholesome American tacos and not Mexican scum. I realise that she was in a minority of a very few, and that this minority exists everywhere, but because America is so big, the minority is also bigger.

TW, I agree with what you said, but I think what Rio says is very relevant too, even if it has been going on for some time.

[semi-relevant osgilliate] On video games, in a French exam today, there was a document that said that some American expert said that video games cause obesity and we had to compose (in French) a 100 word response. So I ranted on about how it's not, in fact, the video games that cause the obesity. It's the parents, who let their kids play games all day, and bring them snacks instead of giving them regular meals, that cause the obesity. I played video games a helluva lot as a kid, and still do now, as a not quite so young kid, but my mum always forced me to go for a walk, a swim, whatever, after an hour. Eating happened at dinner time in the kitchen, not whenever I felt like it in front of the console. [/osgiliate] (But still slightly off course)

What I'm trying to say is, it's up to parents to ensure that their kids know the difference between a violent game and reality. It's also up to parents to say "Hey, this game is rated 18 (or whatever). I'm not buying this for my8 year old son!". I know the developers probably don't care if two year olds play the game, but their just doing their job. Personally, I don't think video games cause people to do things like this, but that's my argument in favour of video games. (In moderation)

Sometimes, people just get pissed off at the world. I know I do, a lot. When this happens I tend to sulk in my bedroom, listen to Wagner, or Barbers Adagio, or Elgars Enigma variations or whatever, and write something, anything down, to get my feelings out of me and into some physical form. Maybe these people who grab a gun, a knife, anything and go and kill for kicks then turn the weapon on themselves just couldn't handle their feelings with the world anymore, and couldn't channel them. I don't know.

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TheMary
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Posted: Tue 19 Feb , 2008 10:20 am
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Most people that have guns don't go around shooting one another in America and if someone wants a gun they are going to get a gun. There is no stopping those with an agenda. The guy went through legal channels and obtained guns he used to murder innocent people. The guns weren't the problem it was the individual whom I don't think was at all insane. He had problems but to classify him as insane is irresponsible. This guy was a selfish arrogant prick that did a horrendous thing, I don't really care if he was off his meds it's not an excuse. He should have done the world a favor and put the gun in his mouth to begin with, the fact that he didn't shows how perverted the guy was.

I hate guns they give me the creeps. The only purpose a gun has is to inflict damage. And since it's within our rights to bear arms American's are allowed to obtain these vile weapons. The gun takes a lot of flack but it's really the people that have them that I don't trust.

And Crucifer who ever doesn't want authentic Mexican tacos is just plain retarded. The best tacos come from the little hole in the wall restaurants or stands on side of the road :D.

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Posted: Tue 19 Feb , 2008 11:35 am
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Ara-anna
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Posted: Tue 19 Feb , 2008 4:06 pm
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Rio,

I think that you maybe onto something here, but maybe another thread could be started...or something. I think that for too long we 'Americans' have been held up to some stupid standard, one perhaps or our own making, and yes it did start way before this day and age. We for some reason think we have to keep up with the Jones' which drove us to work harder longer hours, need faster means of communication, putting tons of stress on ourselves to be the best greatest superpower in the world.

I think it’s a sickness that has inflicted the entire nation. I have long said that this impossible standard we live in the US is just way too much to expect out of real humans. We expect too much out of ourselves, the world in turn expects too much out of us and that something soon is going to give. These shootings are a mere symptom of what is really going on in the US. We have the largest use of illegal drugs in the world, we have one of the highest gun crime rates in the western world, we have rampant gang problems......yet we all work more hours each year than most western countries all to buy stuff we think we need. Our health care is in the crapper, our economy is crashing and the middle class is all but non-existent. We are on more anti-depressants than any other country in the world and we get kicked more times than not when we are down. Some of us see the signs of what is happening and how hard it is going to be when the superpower finally crashes, which is almost inevitable now. What is even scarier is just how much the US is beginning to resemble Germany pre WWII.

The gun issues will get worse. Changing the 2nd Amendment at this point is putting a band-aid on a gushing aorta, not much help at all. The guns are here and unless we turn into a complete police state and have the police go door to door and forcibly take guns away they are going to be here. Sure we can change the laws now, but what does that do to change the fact that there are tons of illegal guns already on the streets right now?

Look at the drug problem in this country. We are self medicating....either with drugs or alcohol or both. Why do we need to self medicate....maybe we are doing too much for too many for too long and think that we are supposed to be living the dream, maybe not. But we are self medicating to ease the pain of what ever it is we as a nation are unable to handle. And its not just illegal drugs, the number of Americans on anti-depressants is huge and growing bigger.

It seems to me that Americans are:
1. Depressed
2. Angry
3. Stressed
4. Self medicating
5. Have weapons available
6. And are growing poorer with a disappearing middle class.

How does this get fixed? I don't know, but looking throughout human history when a civilization gets to this point the next point is never good for anyone in the world. When France went through this a dictator took over and went rampant in Europe. When Germany went through this a dictator took over and went rampant in Europe.

It's not a good cocktail that is mixing in the US at the moment. It is one of the main reasons I was so against another Bush in the White House. A country can't have hungry, angry, depressed, armed people with out some sort of really bad things happening. Even if they aren't armed it’s not at good thing.

And for those who think the US is all glowing wonderfulness and we are all rich, I can drive 20 minutes from where I sit now and find places in the US that people live without electricity, running water and have limited food supplies, and that number of population is growing every day.

I really don't think taking guns away is going to stop the anger that is building more and more in the US. It might slow down the killings that are happening, but it is not going to stop the anger. The anger is going to continue to build until it reaches a really bad place, unless we can get a real leader to lead this country.

Anyway I am hoping Maria's generation thing is correct and the next generation to come up will be the hero generation that will actaully save the country. Or who knows maybe the world will end in 2012.

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Feredir
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Posted: Wed 20 Feb , 2008 3:47 pm
 
 
TheMary wrote:
Most people that have guns don't go around shooting one another in America and if someone wants a gun they are going to get a gun. There is no stopping those with an agenda. The guy went through legal channels and obtained guns he used to murder innocent people. The guns weren't the problem it was the individual whom I don't think was at all insane. He had problems but to classify him as insane is irresponsible. This guy was a selfish arrogant prick that did a horrendous thing, I don't really care if he was off his meds it's not an excuse. He should have done the world a favor and put the gun in his mouth to begin with, the fact that he didn't shows how perverted the guy was.

I hate guns they give me the creeps. The only purpose a gun has is to inflict damage. And since it's within our rights to bear arms American's are allowed to obtain these vile weapons. The gun takes a lot of flack but it's really the people that have them that I don't trust.

And Crucifer who ever doesn't want authentic Mexican tacos is just plain retarded. The best tacos come from the little hole in the wall restaurants or stands on side of the road :D.


I don't think he was insane, because for someone to be classified as insane they can't be corrected with medication. Which he could, he just refused to take them.

I have dealt with many people who are off their meds and they do not think like the rest of us. You cannot reason with them because they think nothing is wrong and they feel fine, why? Because they have left reality. Is this an excuse? No, I don't buy that either. However, it is a reason for his actions but not an excuse because that relieves him of all responsibility.

He did not legally obtain a gun, he lied on the application to obtain the gun. When you buy a gun you are asked if you have been hospitalized, adjudicated to have mental issues, etc. So one of two things happened, either he lied or the gun dealer sold it to him anyway. My guess is he lied.

freddy


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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Wed 20 Feb , 2008 3:50 pm
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All you have to do is lie to get a gun?

:Q

That's quite a barrier to overcome.

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Wed 20 Feb , 2008 3:52 pm
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I have to agree. Then it needs to be that much harder to get the gun. As Freddy said earlier, the mental health system needs to cooperate, so that these kinds of people aren't able to just say they're fine and obtain a gun.


Lali

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Feredir
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Posted: Wed 20 Feb , 2008 4:50 pm
 
 
Yes, that is the only area on the gun application that currently does not a cross check. Unless someone is adjudicated as mentally incompetent and the court reports that adjudication. That's what a lot of the stuff about the VT shootings was about.

The last I heard the House and Senate were trying to hammer out something to make it happen. The NRA is in full support of mental health background so that will help this along, as long as they don't get stupid and try to add something that has nothing to do with mental health.


freddy


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TheMary
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Posted: Thu 21 Feb , 2008 2:46 am
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Lying on an application now there's a novel concept :P. But in order cut down on giving guns to mentally instable people would require gun dealers to obtain medical information. On one hand I'm all for it but on the other it's an invasion of privacy and that's not cool. Either way if someone wants a gun they are going to get a gun through legal channels or not.

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yovargas
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Posted: Thu 21 Feb , 2008 2:57 am
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Ew. I don't know the details at all but my immediate reaction to TM's post is the right to privacy wins that battle hands down.


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Pippin4242
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Posted: Thu 21 Feb , 2008 3:55 am
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My god, yov! How can you possibly support that position? All a madman has to to to buy a gun is lie?!?

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 21 Feb , 2008 4:14 am
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The key thing here is... what mental illness results in a loss of the rights the rest of us have?

criminal behavior results in a loss of rights. Does mental illness? What mental illness?

I'll concede that some mental illnesses make you dangerous, but where is the line drawn? And if we all believe that medication can solve said mental illnesses? When do you regain the rights you lose from that mental illness?

this is not an easy question, especially as mental illnesses are so poorly understood.

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Riverthalos
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Posted: Thu 21 Feb , 2008 6:14 am
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hal's asking the right questions.

There is also the further challenge in that mental illness is part of your health history and medical records are protected by confidentiality laws. Furthermore, treatment itself is bound by consent laws...unless you are either not competent to refuse and/or a danger to yourself or others. However, the vast majority of mentally ill are neither. And, of course, not all mental illnesses are chronic. People recover from depression. People recover from anxiety and stress disorders. And so on. Do you have to carry a black mark on your record forever because of a terrible time in your life that's long in the past (hint: the NIU shooter's only hospitalization happened more than five years ago)?

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TheMary
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Posted: Thu 21 Feb , 2008 9:14 am
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The questions that hal pose are why I might be for allowing medical records to be involved in the gun buying process. Allowing medical records to be viewed is a HUGE invasion which is why it makes me uncomfortable to even say I might consider it should XYZ be met.

I think it's because these lines are so fine and delicate that nothing to that effect has been mandatory. And even if med records are available for this type of situation if someone gets turned down they'll just go to the street vendor who sells guns under the table. So in that respect hands off my medical records pal!

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Lay down
Your sweet and weary head
Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


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Posted: Thu 21 Feb , 2008 10:10 am
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Surely it could work differently to that? Your doctor/hospital/consultant or whoever has to sign a form saying you're fit to bear arms. Its not like you have to hand the Walmart guy a copy of your meds prescription!

Of course, there would have to be high penalties for "rubber stamping" so that the Doctors take it seriously.

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