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George W. Bush

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Legolas the elf
Post subject: George W. Bush
Posted: Sat 23 Feb , 2008 6:02 am
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Ok. I'm serious here. And I know everyone is just about Bushed out, and this is old news and will soon be an old subject, but I need some resolution.

Do you think Dubya actually did anything in his 8 years of "being" president? I mean, on his own? I mean simply: Does actually have the intelligence to understand the beginnings of what his job is? Do you think he wrote 1 complete speech on his own in his 8 years? Just 1? --I'd bet he wouldn't even know what to talk about if others weren't writing them for him.
I mean, I just have this mental picture of Bush walking around everywhere he goes, with that half-clueless look on his face, surrounded by a group of shadowy men whispering in his ear what he needs to say, what he needs to know about this situation or that, and how to handle this and that...and the whole time Bush barely even knows what they're talking about. Like a man just TOTTALLY out of his element. From the first time I saw the man on TV, I knew he was an idiot president.


Remember, I am serious here. .....although there are light, alluding jokes on tv and in the media about how president bush is a moron, there is still a level of hush-hush about it; I guess because he's still president and Americans cannot disrespect their president. Kind of like "Pretend he's not there, and everything will be fine."

Is it just me, or do people in public or social gatherings generally not talk about what a dunce Bush is?


But the most bewildering thing for me....the most mind boggling, disorienting thing for me; the thing that makes me feel like I don't know what's going on in America, is the fact Americans voted Bush in...twice. the question I want to ask most of all, because I need to make sense of things:

For those who voted for Bush, please:

Why did you vote for him?
I haven't asked anyone this before, and would love to hear some explanation....(believe me, I'm looking for some kind of reason that I have overlooked.)


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jadeval
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Posted: Sat 23 Feb , 2008 9:05 am
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Quote:
Is it just me, or do people in public or social gatherings generally not talk about what a dunce Bush is?
True to some degree... and certainly not so much in front of people who voted for him either time, whether or not they regret it. Even for those who maybe-kinda-sorta regret voting for the guy but still like Republican economical positions, I think it's considered harsh to knock the president.

Much of my dad's side of the family is like this, and when I ripped Bush mercilessly while at home this holiday season they didn't appreciate it very much. It almost became a shouting match of hysterical proportions, but I simply cannot let the fact go that we ACTUALLY have an 8-year commander-in-chief who kinda-sorta-maybe believes in the theory of evolution. I mean, are you sh**ing me? The "head of the free world" sorta-maybe takes science seriously? Such a president deserves all the trashing we can dish out if you ask me. I mean, it's true, that the guy is utterly semi-literate. Sure, he is capable of garbling words in a sufficiently hominid-like fashion in order to convey some semblance of meaning, and he probably reads at least, oh, 150 words a minute. But I dunno, I just have this nagging idea in the back of my head that the president should be an intellectual in some sense. Not just average or a little above average, but truly articulate and able to command a relatively vast knowledge of multiple political topics in a short time or space... obviously not the case for Bushy.

And this is part of the issue, that Bush is simply a more ordinary guy who happened to find his way to the White House through some magical feat of politico-postmodern marketing. US politics just hasn't been idiot-proofed yet, that's all. We still have this nagging problem that fundamentalist Christians and other religious far-righters can actually make it into office, and it's all because of a few hot-button issues and few evangelicals who go nutso and push the otherwise reasonable republican base over the top. I mean, they don't have debates about stem-cell research, gay rights, abortion, etc. in France and Germany and UK. That's because they're, oh I dunno, politically sane and they don't let fools into office.

I actually did vote for the guy first time around (not the second), but that was only because it was my first time voting in a presidential election and I was a registered Republican because that's what my dad told me to do (republicans are good for small business I guess). Basically, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. He seemed like a *nice* and honest guy at the time... huh, well we learned our lesson about politicians with "personality"... which is why I'm voting for the cyborg this time around... I'm thinking Hillary is the counterintuitive but ultimately wise choice.

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Legolas the elf
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Posted: Sat 23 Feb , 2008 3:35 pm
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The "cyborg".....lol!


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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Sat 23 Feb , 2008 4:47 pm
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When Tony Blair's press secretary finally left his job after a number of years of being in the centre of things, he was asked on British TV about Bush.
He said that Bush wasn't as stupid as he looked and then corrected himself immediately to say as people thought he was. I can't say I was convinced though.

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vison
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Posted: Sat 23 Feb , 2008 5:52 pm
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The people who "count" don't care if Mr. Bush is a moron. They know there are un-morons in plenty to watch over him.

Ordinary people take a long, long time to wake up. But eventually they catch on. In this case, because of 9/11, Mr. Bush got re-elected. That's the only reason - people were afraid of changing horses in midstream. Don't forget, Mr. Kerry got pretty much half the votes anyway. Hardly a resounding validation of Mr. Bush's presidency, in the middle of a war.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Sat 23 Feb , 2008 9:13 pm
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GWB is not stupid, he is zealous, there is a big difference. Not only was GWB groomed for politics even after his fiasco decades in the seventies and eighties, the GOP and daddy were sincere on getting him SOMEPLACE, and GWB obligingly toted the party lines. Hard on crime? Ya got it!! Support death penalties? Ya got it! Have prayer meetings with lots of evangelical folks? Ya got it. Run for president in 2000 to wipe out those nasty Dems who only shag interns, ya got it. Oh, say what Dad? Be the "uniter" when I run? Okay, ya got it. What, Cheney will be my running mate? Well, Dad says he is a committed hawk, and I need a tough guy back on defense, so be it.

Oh dear, now terrorists really attacked!! I know, let us centralize power, we will go after Afghanistan, but, this plays brilliantly into my plans to succeed in Iraq where dear Dad never would or could. I will be famous, I will leave a legacy, Americans will LOVE me. I finally found my niche!!


:( :neutral: :help:

Not STUPID, just a fool.

He is the most UNPOPULAR president since Nixon during the height of the Watergate scandal. GWB doesn't even have a decent scandal to claim strike points against him on.

His legacy will be as one of the WORST presidents America ever saw voted into office, and I HOPE we learned our lessons.


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Sat 23 Feb , 2008 9:30 pm
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Quote:
His legacy will be as one of the WORST presidents America ever saw voted into office, and I HOPE we learned our lessons.
How is that going to happen when the only alternatives are Hillary Clinton and a man who is the epitomy of style over substance?

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The Watcher
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Posted: Sat 23 Feb , 2008 9:52 pm
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
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His legacy will be as one of the WORST presidents America ever saw voted into office, and I HOPE we learned our lessons.
How is that going to happen when the only alternatives are Hillary Clinton and a man who is the epitomy of style over substance?
Well, I already quit over on Manwe on just this topic, but Isee TWO big plusses in both Hillary or Barak.

Barak Obama IS a good "uniter" or "facilitator." He doe not offer empty promises, but I also think that he would be willing to compromise to get stuff done. And, frankly, I think that is what we need right now, a country that can move forward and stop breaking down and gridlock every time an unpopular or difficult vote is called for.

Hillary Clinton, unlikely as it seems at this point in time that she WOULD be the Dem candidate, also at least offers a bit of change, getting us off of this terrible "America must take out its enemies" mind think and focusing a bit more on matters more critical and near to home. But, she comes with her own political baggage. I agree there. I do not think she would be terrible at all as president, I do worry about Bill being on the fringes, and whether she could ever convince one diehard GOP member of Congress to see eye to eye with her.

But, heck, Iavas, I am just glad Bush will be gone. Seriously. the man lived on his own reality for eight years, and never could admit what HE saw was not what most of the rest of us saw, and I frankly think his admin has set us back decades in terms of many things.


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vison
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 1:50 am
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Politics is the art of the possible. Mr. Bush saw it - or seemed to see it - as no art, merely over-riding any commonality (is there such a word?) in favour of US vs THEM, both domestically and world-wide.

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Legolas the elf
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 2:46 am
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Quote:
Not only was GWB groomed for politics
They may have TRIED to groom him, but I don't think much of it sunk in.

As for democrats shagging interns....that's better than trying to live up to daddy by bombing innocent people. Even aside from war, Bush may not have been an angel with his power as president in his personal life.

Shagging interns is all they could get on Clinton. And besides, JFK was womanizer too....so was Martin Luther King Jr. They're still human....they're not God.

That's also my issue with the hardcore right-wing evangelists: This is America...the land of the free, the land of the diverse. Freedom of choice....freedom of religion.
The right-wings are fear-instillers: it's how they do their politics. And the sad thing is,they use religion as a political tool. They promote the type of Gospel preaching that is done by instilling fear in people, rather than demonstrating the principles of Christianity, and letting people have their own, pure awakenings to the Gospel by witnessing it for themselves. That's why I don't like vote Republican, generally. That's why I don't go to some churches.

"Drilling for fear makes the job simple...
Born on third, thinks he got a triple."


The Watcher, I agree with you on Obama being a uniter. :D I too think that's what we need. Nothing especially brilliant, just someone sane enough to hold people together. Maybe that'll take brilliance, I don't know.


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The Watcher
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 3:08 am
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Legolas the elf wrote:
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Not only was GWB groomed for politics
They may have TRIED to groom him, but I don't think much of it sunk in.

As for democrats shagging interns....that's better than trying to live up to daddy by bombing innocent people. Even aside from war, I'm sure Bush as not been an angel with his power as president in his personal life.

Shagging interns is all they could get on Clinton. And besides, JFK was womanizer too....so was Martin Luther King Jr. They're still human....they're not God.
Leggy -

All I can say is that you need to become much more of a cynic. Do you think for one moment that GWB came up with the idea to run for president on his own? Do you think that he "chose" Dick Cheney? GWB thought he was some sort of anointed potential prince ready to carry on his father's legacy, and he bought it hook, line, and sinker. GHWB was quoted even last year as stating that he wanted Jeb to go for the Oval office as well.

GET ALL of these people out of office and a far away from influence as possible.

That is one of my major problems with Hillary, I am frankly SICK to death of political dynastics in modern American politics, the farther that one is away from the Kennedys, Clintons, Bushes, Roosevelts, and any others that I did not mentin, the better!!


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 6:37 am
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I will buy every member of b77 a drink if Obama does any "uniting" as president. :)

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jewelsong
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 9:08 am
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
I will buy every member of b77 a drink if Obama does any "uniting" as president. :)
Iavas, perhaps you don't realize the uniting he has already done.

20 years ago, if a black man had run for president in the US, the only votes he would have gotten would have been other blacks and ultra-liberals. There is no way he would have been considered for the actual nom.

The fact that Obama has been able to get popular support from a variety of ages, backgrounds, genders and races is HUGE. He has managed to unite heretofore divided factions of the democratic party.

His organization skills and ability to work positively with the other party has already been mentioned. Why are you so determined that he is simply full of empty rhetoric?


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Wilma
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 2:26 pm
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I was just reading this, and and for some reason The Watcher, reading about supporting the death penalty and then having a prayer meeting meeting disturbed me somewhat.

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Legolas the elf
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 4:52 pm
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Wilma wrote:
I was just reading this, and and for some reason The Watcher, reading about supporting the death penalty and then having a prayer meeting meeting disturbed me somewhat.
I think they interpret their passion for punishment as religious zeal. Far right-wingers are the fear-instilling ones....who believe in a God to be feared. They think they're God is a vengeful God....so, naturally they exhibit themselves what they believe God does: which is justice. They prefer justice over mercy. The democrats are more mercy, usually. "By God, I'm not afraid to put those criminals in their place!" They think democrats are not strong enough to do it. They don't understand mercy.


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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 4:58 pm
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I don't think it's (only) mercy over justice. I think it's different perceptions of what justice is. Also, vengeance vs. justice springs to my mind...

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Legolas the elf
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 6:22 pm
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Yeah Nienor, good point...they kind of equate vengeance as being justice. "An eye for an eye" kind of deal.

What happened to putting their teaching "do unto others as you would have done to you" into practice?


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 6:39 pm
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jewelsong wrote:
Iavas_Saar wrote:
I will buy every member of b77 a drink if Obama does any "uniting" as president. :)
Iavas, perhaps you don't realize the uniting he has already done.

20 years ago, if a black man had run for president in the US, the only votes he would have gotten would have been other blacks and ultra-liberals. There is no way he would have been considered for the actual nom.

The fact that Obama has been able to get popular support from a variety of ages, backgrounds, genders and races is HUGE. He has managed to unite heretofore divided factions of the democratic party.

His organization skills and ability to work positively with the other party has already been mentioned. Why are you so determined that he is simply full of empty rhetoric?
The primary two reasons he has gained more support than previous black candidates are his style, and because there seems to be a sense that it's the right time for a "first" (first black man or first woman).

Uniting factions of the same party does not really count, uniting across the lines is what gets stuff done. Plus all those "divided factions" vote together once a nominee is picked anyway, so I don't see the big deal.

What has he done with the other party? The conservatives I hear think he is ultra-liberal and would never unite with him. I even heard Michelle Obama's speech talked about in fascist terms. They are scared of an Obama presidency.

Organization skills is the nub of it - but they will come from his team, he already admitted as such. I can foresee him being little more than a front-man "selling" the policies of others with his oratory skills. As much as he talks about being a visionary, there is no way to know he's not just saying whatever he needs to in order to get elected.

It is foolish to have hopes raised by this guy. Washington would hardly change in his 4 years. And why would you want a Commander-in-chief who said the US should have bombed Pakistan after 9/11.

When you put him next to Ron Paul, the difference in independence seems very clear. Paul is his own man.. Obama is much more part of the system.

Surely even those who support him have to admit that his heaven-for-everyone, feel-good rhetoric is a little OTT? Personally, I cringe when he's on because he can never offer the utopia he's trying to sell.

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jewelsong
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 7:09 pm
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Iavas, I think I am glad you are moving back to the UK. Your cynicism about the US is really disturbing to me.

I am not going to refute you point by point, since you obviously have already made up your mind and you wouldn't listen with open ears, anyway.

But this and other comments you have made have given me the distinct impression that you basically are very uncomfortable with many things about the US and will be happier living elsewhere.


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Pippin4242
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 7:13 pm
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Bomb... Pakistan? :Q

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