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George W. Bush

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 7:23 pm
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jewelsong wrote:
Iavas, I think I am glad you are moving back to the UK. Your cynicism about the US is really disturbing to me.
Disturbing you? I think you are over-reacting.

I don't think Obama is worth getting excited about, or that Washington could be easily fixed - hardly radical views.

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jewelsong
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 7:35 pm
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
Disturbing you? I think you are over-reacting.
Whatever. It is apparent from your postings that you really do not think much of the US.
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I don't think Obama is worth getting excited about, or that Washington could be easily fixed - hardly radical views.
Nobody said it would be "easily fixed." I don't find your views radical at all. I find them pedestrian and cynical. And unfortunate, honestly.


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 8:07 pm
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It is apparent from your postings that you really do not think much of the US.
You've accussed me of this before and I'll say the same thing again. America is a great place to live, most of the people are great, I just don't like the people in power. I would say exactly the same thing of the UK.

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democritus
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 9:19 pm
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
The primary two reasons he has gained more support than previous black candidates are his style, and because there seems to be a sense that it's the right time for a "first" (first black man or first woman).

Uniting factions of the same party does not really count, uniting across the lines is what gets stuff done. Plus all those "divided factions" vote together once a nominee is picked anyway, so I don't see the big deal.

What has he done with the other party? The conservatives I hear think he is ultra-liberal and would never unite with him. I even heard Michelle Obama's speech talked about in fascist terms. They are scared of an Obama presidency.

Organization skills is the nub of it - but they will come from his team, he already admitted as such. I can foresee him being little more than a front-man "selling" the policies of others with his oratory skills. As much as he talks about being a visionary, there is no way to know he's not just saying whatever he needs to in order to get elected.

It is foolish to have hopes raised by this guy. Washington would hardly change in his 4 years. And why would you want a Commander-in-chief who said the US should have bombed Pakistan after 9/11.

When you put him next to Ron Paul, the difference in independence seems very clear. Paul is his own man.. Obama is much more part of the system.

Surely even those who support him have to admit that his heaven-for-everyone, feel-good rhetoric is a little OTT? Personally, I cringe when he's on because he can never offer the utopia he's trying to sell.
LOL, what is it about all of the real-life depressives on this board reacting with such fear and loathing to a candidate who personifies success, vigour, and optimism? Oh I know, it's because he is the counterpoint to their entire diminished worldview and life expectations. It's the same on Manwe as well, the usual suspects reacting with fear and an undercurrent of bitterness and the more well-adjusted characters either relaxed about, or supportive, of Obama. I'll give Iavas credit though, he did manage to put all of the gibberish espoused about Obama into one single reply revealing in the process how little research he's actually done on the man's life and record.

Obama certainly isn't perfect but he deserves better than this foolishness.


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democritus
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 9:29 pm
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
I will buy every member of b77 a drink if Obama does any "uniting" as president. :)
I'll have a large Scotch thanks.


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yovargas
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 9:34 pm
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jewelsong wrote:
Iavas_Saar wrote:
I will buy every member of b77 a drink if Obama does any "uniting" as president. :)
Iavas, perhaps you don't realize the uniting he has already done.

20 years ago, if a black man had run for president in the US, the only votes he would have gotten would have been other blacks and ultra-liberals. There is no way he would have been considered for the actual nom.
Um, I just wanted to say that, I like Obama and all, but he can't take the credit for America finally being ready for a non-white President. That was work done by many other people over the several decades.


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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 9:37 pm
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Demo - so, would you say that anyone who has serious reservations about Obama (in large part based on his marketing, which I think has reasonably been questioned on TORC as potentially fraudulent, even if that wouldn't have been my own word choice) has a "diminished worldview and life expectations" and is a "real-life depressive"? Wow. If one has to support Obama (or "relax about" him) in order to be well-adjusted...well, I'd rather be poorly adjusted and far away from people who have such a 'there is only one correct worldview' mentality.

By the way: I'm all about success, vigor, and optimism, am not depressed, and have a ridiculously driven worldview and high life expectations. So the armchair psychology doesn't fly.

Last edited by tolkienpurist on Sun 24 Feb , 2008 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 9:37 pm
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I wonder what makes such a well-adjusted guy come into threads and be an asshole to people?

Good response tp.

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Legolas the elf
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 10:47 pm
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demo said:
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LOL, what is it about all of the real-life depressives on this board reacting with such fear and loathing to a candidate who personifies success, vigour, and optimism? Oh I know, it's because he is the counterpoint to their entire diminished worldview and life expectations. It's the same on Manwe as well, the usual suspects reacting with fear and an undercurrent of bitterness and the more well-adjusted characters either relaxed about, or supportive, of Obama. I'll give Iavas credit though, he did manage to put all of the gibberish espoused about Obama into one single reply revealing in the process how little research he's actually done on the man's life and record.
Demo I appreciate your insights into politics, and I started this thread to talk about politics and whatnot....not talk about messageboards and/or posters on messageboards.

Iavas, as for Obama's utopianism, I just see it as idealism. Nothing wrong with a healthy dose of idealism....in fact I'd say a healthy dose is healthy. But at the same time, a healthy dose of cynicism is probably healthy....but for me, it's alot smaller in dosage than idealism to be healthy.

What America needs is some good old-fashioned idealism. Just a little. I'm not talking a naive revolution, just some leadership for the cause of good.

I also started this topic to hear from "conservatives"....but I guess b77 isn't the place for that. :blackeye:
To me the term "conservatives" is not appropriate for labeling right-wings. Conservative should be used in relation to the conservation of good things: like the environment, the welfare of the people as a whole. Conserving was is in the American spirit...freedom. Not enslavement, or bureaucracy.


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democritus
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 11:46 pm
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Legolas the elf wrote:
Demo I appreciate your insights into politics, and I started this thread to talk about politics and whatnot....not talk about messageboards and/or posters on messageboards.
No, that's fine, I just have seen the connection of late and wanted to get it off my chest. More than happy to now return to our scheduled programme after I respond to a couple of posters. :)

Last edited by democritus on Mon 25 Feb , 2008 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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democritus
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 11:53 pm
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tolkienpurist wrote:
Demo - so, would you say that anyone who has serious reservations about Obama (in large part based on his marketing, which I think has reasonably been questioned on TORC as potentially fraudulent, even if that wouldn't have been my own word choice) has a "diminished worldview and life expectations" and is a "real-life depressive"? Wow. If one has to support Obama (or "relax about" him) in order to be well-adjusted...well, I'd rather be poorly adjusted and far away from people who have such a 'there is only one correct worldview' mentality.

By the way: I'm all about success, vigor, and optimism, am not depressed, and have a ridiculously driven worldview and high life expectations. So the armchair psychology doesn't fly.
It does with me tp, the people I am talking about haven't just got down on him, they've really got down on him, in a tone that's sometimes borders on plain character assassination (Iavas post I referenced earlier is exhibit A). I'm thinking with these minority of people it's bordering on being a personal thing. There was some very good "armchair psychology" done on Slate from an expert on Myers Briggs that predicted that certain types of personalities would not be used to having someone of Obama's personality type (ENFP) as a potental leader and would feel completely bewildered and threatened by him. That was the personality types (taken to extremes as one does by depression) that I was referring to in my post. I don't have any problem with criticism of Obama btw, but I see a trend in some of the more hostile criticism, a predicted trend from people I would expect it to come from, and I decided to call it just this once.

Last edited by democritus on Mon 25 Feb , 2008 12:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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democritus
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Posted: Sun 24 Feb , 2008 11:58 pm
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
I wonder what makes such a well-adjusted guy come into threads and be an asshole to people?

Good response tp.
"Asshole" is how I would summarise the tone of quite a few of your statements on these boards towards other posters, so in your case I feel no guilt. Especially since being as "asshole" isn't what I was setting out to acheive with those comments.


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vison
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Posted: Mon 25 Feb , 2008 12:17 am
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My definition of conservative has a lot in common with yours, Legolas the Elf.

As for Obama. I haven't heard any of his speeches and don't know what he stands for. But I am a little bemused by the reactions of some of my chums on Manwe and HoF and here.

I think I would "feel" the same way as some others. I hate emotional appeals and high-flown rhetoric, and I DO NOT MEAN OBAMA since I haven't heard him, remember? I am a typical IN type, I guess, in that, and yet, I'd sooner hear an optimist than someone playing on fear. We've had too much of that lately, everywhere.

I'm not cynical, precisely, but realistic.

Attitude counts. Idealism counts. Things like that can make a difference.

The expression of them can make me squirm, though. I admit it. :(

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democritus
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Posted: Mon 25 Feb , 2008 12:33 am
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vison wrote:

I think I would "feel" the same way as some others. I hate emotional appeals and high-flown rhetoric, and I DO NOT MEAN OBAMA since I haven't heard him, remember? I am a typical IN type, I guess, in that, and yet, I'd sooner hear an optimist than someone playing on fear. We've had too much of that lately, everywhere.
Yes, it's interesting that the Right's answer to Obama's message of hope and change (which I really see as more 'renewal' than change based on his style and the former Presidents he models himself on), has been "more fear, more politics of personal destruction, more hate", and why not, it worked in the last couple of elections. Look at this as an example:

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/24/kri ... s-of-fear/
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The expression of them can make me squirm, though. I admit it. :(
Me too, I certainly am not turned on by excessive chanting and slogans and I don't particularly enjoy watching long repetitions of "Yes he can" by Obama's supporters or "Go Hillary" by Hillary's supporters but none of it is out of the range of normal levels of enthusiam especially by young people. Certainly none of it has been anywhere near some of the excesses that I witnessed at the 'pep' rallies of a couple of college campuses in the US which really did strike me as being a little creepy.


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Mon 25 Feb , 2008 2:56 am
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democritus wrote:
Iavas_Saar wrote:
I wonder what makes such a well-adjusted guy come into threads and be an asshole to people?

Good response tp.
"Asshole" is how I would summarise the tone of quite a few of your statements on these boards towards other posters, so in your case I feel no guilt. Especially since being as "asshole" isn't what I was setting out to acheive with those comments.
Perhaps you should hold yourself to consistent personal standards, and not excuse your own rudeness because of other people. Then again, contrary to your excuse above, you are also rude to people who've never been rude to you or others (but if they're under a certain age you will retract the insult - itself an insult to the maturity of the poster).

By the way, I do not fear, loathe or feel threatened by Obama. How you got that from comments about style over substance I'm not sure (but can guess).

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Legolas the elf
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Posted: Mon 25 Feb , 2008 3:03 am
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I hear you guys on the emotional appeal thing. Presidents should be chosen based on logic and not pure emotion. I also feel uncomfortable, in any kind of situation where someone is trying to persuade me of something by excessively playing on my emotions. Although some appealing to emotions is part of human persuasion. If we didn't have emotions we'd be like Spock. I like seeing candidates with a good balance...like 75% logical persuasion, 25% emotional, give or take.
And a president, a leader of anykind, needs charisma. I think part of the emotional persuasion they do is to advertise their charisma. If a president had no charisma, (like our current one :D :P ) they aren't much of a leader...they can't hold their own, and pioneer, because pioneers need followers, and people follow charisma.


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Mon 25 Feb , 2008 3:47 am
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Wasn't it pretty much charisma that got GWB elected? Wasn't he marketed as this likeable cowboy against Gore?

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Legolas the elf
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Posted: Mon 25 Feb , 2008 5:17 am
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Well, Bush did have the cowboy gimmick. But is that really charisma? Ofcourse, Gore wasn't the most charismatic cadidate either. Nor was Kerry. W. Bush was never up against real charisma...like Bill Clinton. :D


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Lidless
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Posted: Thu 28 Feb , 2008 9:23 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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One of the great things about the US Comstitution is that so long as you are over 35, born in the US, and spent 7 (14?) of the last years domiciled in the US, *anyone* can become President.

Alas GWB proved that

It is a strange quirk of the English language that George W Bush is an anagram of 'wanker'.


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eborr
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Posted: Thu 28 Feb , 2008 10:36 pm
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how will history judge President Bush -I suspect to call him a disaster will be considered charitable, I am very worried about the future though, friend Obama is such an obvious establishment token it's frightening, the next one out of Unlce Tom's cabin.


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