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Religious License Plates?

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Estel
Post subject: Religious License Plates?
Posted: Thu 24 Apr , 2008 10:46 pm
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MIAMI - Florida drivers can order more than 100 specialty license plates celebrating everything from manatees to the Miami Heat, but one now under consideration would be the first in the nation to explicitly promote a specific religion.

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The Florida Legislature is considering a specialty plate with a design that includes a Christian cross, a stained-glass window and the words "I Believe."

Rep. Edward Bullard, the plate's sponsor, said people who "believe in their college or university" or "believe in their football team" already have license plates they can buy. The new design is a chance for others to put a tag on their cars with "something they believe in," he said.

If the plate is approved, Florida would become the first state to have a license plate featuring a religious symbol that's not part of a college logo. Approval would almost certainly face a court challenge.

The problem with the state manufacturing the plate is that it "sends a message that Florida is essentially a Christian state" and, second, gives the "appearance that the state is endorsing a particular religious preference," said Howard Simon, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida.

The "I Believe" license plate still has a way to go before it reaches the roads. The proposal is part of a package of license plates being debated in the Senate and ready for a floor vote. In the House, the bill that would authorize the plate has passed one committee 8-2. The Legislature's annual session ends May 2.

Some lawmakers say the state should be careful. Rep. Kelly Skidmore said she is a Roman Catholic and goes to Mass on Sundays, but she believes the "I Believe" plate is inappropriate for the government to produce.

"It's not a road I want to go down. I don't want to see the Star of David next. I don't want to see a Torah next. None of that stuff is appropriate to me," said Skidmore, a Democrat who voted against the plate in committee. "I just believe that."

Florida's specialty license plates require the payment of additional fees, some of which go to causes the plates endorse.

One plate approved in 2004, displaying the motto "Family Values," funds Sheridan House, which provides family programs but also sees its purpose as "sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Bible" and "information about the Christian faith."

The bill creating the "I Believe" plate would also create an "In God We Trust" plate to benefit the children of soldiers and law enforcement officers whose parents have died. It also could face opposition as a violation of the separation of church and state.

An Indiana plate with the same "In God We Trust" phrase has been challenged by the ACLU, but the courts so far have deemed it legal, arguing that it is comparable with other specialty plates.

This isn't the first time a Florida license plate design has created religious controversy. In 1999, lawmakers approved a bright yellow "Choose Life" license plate with a picture of a boy and girl. It raises money for agencies that encourage women to not have abortions.

That generated a court battle, with abortion rights groups saying the plate had religious overtones. But it was ruled legal, and about a dozen states now have similar plates.

A "Trust God" license plate was proposed in Florida in 2003. It would have given money to Christian radio stations and charities, but was never produced.

Earlier this year, a legislative committee was shown an image of a "Trinity" plate that showed a Christlike figure with his arms outstretched. It and two other plates were voted down.

The group asking for the "I Believe" plate, the Orlando-based nonprofit Faith in Teaching Inc., supports faith-based schools activities. The plate would cost drivers an extra $25 annual fee.

Approving the plate could open the state to legal challenges, according to Josie Brown, who teaches constitutional law at the University of South Carolina. And it's not certain who would win.

"It would be an interesting close call," Brown said.

Simon, of the ACLU, said approval of the plate could prompt many other groups to seek their own designs, and they could claim discrimination if their plans were rejected. That could even allow the Ku Klux Klan to get a plate, Simon said.

Bullard, the plate's sponsor, isn't sure all groups should be able to express their preference. If atheists came up with an "I Don't Believe" plate, for example, he would probably oppose it.
I always wondered about Florida having so many license plates. I don't know what I think about this. I mean I don't mind license plates like this being made, but you would have to allow others as well. There's a pro-life license plate, so pro-choice should be allowed to have one has well. Christian License plates? Well then, yes to athiest, jewish, muslim, etc etc etc

Somehow, I don't see the Florida legislature allowing the others and because of that, I don't think this one should be allowed.
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Pippin4242
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Posted: Thu 24 Apr , 2008 11:24 pm
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Estel, I'd like to contribute to this thread, but your own comment sums up my views rather nicely. Shame on you. ;)

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Lidless
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Posted: Thu 24 Apr , 2008 11:36 pm
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My favourite bumper sticker I've ever seen was, "This bumper sticker will change your opinion".

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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Fri 25 Apr , 2008 12:45 am
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The new design is a chance for others to put a tag on their cars with "something they believe in," he said.

....

Bullard, the plate's sponsor, isn't sure all groups should be able to express their preference. If atheists came up with an "I Don't Believe" plate, for example, he would probably oppose it.
Okay, so he wants to enable people to express their beliefs...so long as he believes in the same thing? No dice.

I'd lobby for an "In God We Don't Trust" license plate, just on principle.

In 2005, Virginia was weighing whether to have a "Traditional Marriage" license plate - a state sanctioned Homophobe Pride Parade, if you will.

I was all about that - I had VA plates at the time - as long as I could get a rainbow-festooned "Gay Marriage" license plate issued by the state. Picturing a rainbow "gay marriage" Virginia license plate is comical - and therein is the entire point. If a state wants to go down the road of issuing license plates for only certain viewpoints on controversial issues, it should set aside the money for the lawsuit it's going to lose in advance.
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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 25 Apr , 2008 12:53 am
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Bullard, the plate's sponsor, isn't sure all groups should be able to express their preference. If atheists came up with an "I Don't Believe" plate, for example, he would probably oppose it.
In other news, Bullard is a douchebag
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Riverthalos
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Posted: Fri 25 Apr , 2008 3:50 am
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You know, there are so many ways to express yourself with your car. You can get a bumper sticker. Or a Jesus fish or some variant (like a Flying Spaghetti Monster :cool: ). Or, if you're leery of sticking stuff to the body of your car or on your windows, you can get a license plate frame. Or you can dangle things off your rearview mirror. You can probably even get customized mudflaps and hubcaps. Or you can just paint it. Why does the state need to sponsor a special plate when there are already so many other options?

But, if FL really wants Christian license plates, they'd better offer plates for the other major religions in their state as well. I'd personally find it amusing if they went through with that approach and offered plates with crosses, Stars of David, crescents, the Hindu wheel, and so on. Including a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

My state has some vaguely political plates - the "Respect Life" ones with the columbines and the "Support our Troops" plates come to mind, but, as I said, the politics are vague. Supporting the troops does not mean you support the war, though it's often taken that way. The "Respect Life" plates, as it turns out, are a memorial to the Columbine shootings and not an anti-abortion slogan. I was surprised to learn that, but the columbine should have clued me in on that one, I think. :help: We also have special "Share the Road" plates with pictures of bicyclists on them. I like to see those.

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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
Post subject: Re: Religious License Plates?
Posted: Fri 25 Apr , 2008 4:22 am
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.
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Quote:
"It's not a road I want to go down. I don't want to see the Star of David next. I don't want to see a Torah next. None of that stuff is appropriate to me," said Skidmore, a Democrat who voted against the plate in committee. "I just believe that."
GTFO of the Day goes to Rep. Kelly Skidmark. :Duck:
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The problem with the state manufacturing the plate is that it "sends a message that Florida is essentially a Christian state" and, second, gives the "appearance that the state is endorsing a particular religious preference," said Howard Simon, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida.
It's just about availability, ain't it? Not supporting one religion over another. Non-Christians won't have to go out and buy these license plates, I really don't see the problem. Canada has Elvis postage stamps, not as a way of ignoring Canadian musicians, but just acknowledging that this is one guy who had a huge impact on pop culture and there are probs people out there who'd want to buy the stamps. Grocery stores sell candy, it doesn't mean I can't buy veggies. Bumper stickers are probably cheaper but feh, let 'em do what they want, doesn't bother me none.

I can't think of many instances where variety is a bad thing, so whatever, Florida. Go beat up more teens, YouTube is getting boring.




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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 25 Apr , 2008 4:30 am
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It seemed to me Rep. Skidmore was saying that none of the religious stuff was appropriate for the state to produce, which unless they cover every religion, I agree.

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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
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Posted: Fri 25 Apr , 2008 4:43 am
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I understood what she said, I just think it's silly to let people express themselves through their love of manatees or local sports teams but not... their faith. One seems like a ~bigger deal~ than the others.




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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 25 Apr , 2008 5:06 am
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I think it's all down to the separation of church and state thing. Dunno.

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Fri 25 Apr , 2008 12:19 pm
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Remember the guy in CA (I think) who got a vanity license plate that said "Atheist". He was harassed and eventually the state stepped in and ordered him to change it, saying it violated anti-obscenity laws.

Last edited by Dave_LF on Fri 25 Apr , 2008 10:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Rodia
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Posted: Fri 25 Apr , 2008 9:54 pm
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The problem with a slogan like 'In God we Don't Trust' is that it sounds like it's meant to offend, not proclaim a belief. Like if you put 'Atheists are wrong'. I know it doesn't match by syntax but it has that same snarky feeling to it. Instead of concentrating on the belief it's all about how someone else's belief is wrong. Or at least that's the impression it gives me- and I've got nothing against atheists, as long as they can refrain from rolling their eyes at me and acting like I'm retarded for thinking God exists. That's the message I see in 'In God We Don't Trust'.

Like E, I don't see the problem with such license plates- as long as others would not be prohibited. My first thought was not that it's meant to promote Christianity above other religions, but simply that from a practical point of view, Christians are a majority in Florida (I assume?) and there is a big demand for license plates with crosses- perhaps a very small one for license plates with a Star of David, in comparison. Of course the state should also think about the message this seemingly harmless mathematic can send. If it's seen as discriminatory, and cannot be fixed because, say, it's just too expensive to print a plate for every religion, it's probably better to leave it alone. But then again, how affordable is printing all those other license plates? Are there some designs which just don't get chosen? The issue with religious ones that never got used would be that they could never be taken out of the pool, because that WOULD be seen as offensive. Even if no one ever wanted the buddhist plate, you'd have to keep it in there. And how would you choose which religions to disregard? There are a lot of them.

Of course I'm entirely unfamiliar with the process of printing a license plate, and for all I know the technology might allow for any number of designs at no additional cost. Like, do they have to print a thousand Elvis plates and hope people want them, or do they make them as ordered?

Anyone know how it works?
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Dave_LF
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Posted: Fri 25 Apr , 2008 10:10 pm
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Dave_LF wrote:
Remember the guy in CA (I think) who got a vanity license plate that said "Atheist". He was harassed and eventually the state stepped in and ordered him to change it, saying it violated anti-obscenity laws.
I was wrong; it wasn't California. It was Florida, the very same state that's now promoting Christian plates:

http://www.8bm.com/diatribes/volume01/016/316.htm

I knew it was one of those Disney states. :P
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Crucifer
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Posted: Sat 26 Apr , 2008 3:38 pm
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Can I just point out here that the gospel according to Matthew, chapter 6 actually condemns this sort of thing?

The basic gist is "If you're gonna go around being all "Look at me! I'm Christian!", so that other people can see you're a Christian and talk about how great you are, then you're a hypocrite and not really actually Christian, per se."

That aside, I agree that if one religion is allowed this, all religions should be allowed this. I'm a Christian (most of the time, I think), but if the state ever said that people could have Christian license plates, I'd ask for an agnostic one.

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Sat 26 Apr , 2008 7:00 pm
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Crucifer wrote:
Can I just point out here that the gospel according to Matthew, chapter 6 actually condemns this sort of thing?

The basic gist is "If you're gonna go around being all "Look at me! I'm Christian!", so that other people can see you're a Christian and talk about how great you are, then you're a hypocrite and not really actually Christian, per se."
I think it's a big misapplication of that passage, Crucifer, to apply it to this situation. The first verse sums it up nicely (as you alluded to): Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

The point of doing acts of righteousness is not to show the world how pious and wonderful you are; the point is to put your faith into action, which should be done for God and God alone, not the acknowledgment of men.

But putting a cross on your license plate or wherever is not nearly the same thing in my mind. It's one thing to proclaim, "Hey, I'm a Christian!" and another to proclaim, "Look how wonderful I am by giving money to poor people! I am so righteous and awesome and sooo right with God."

I see the license plate proclaiming the first and not the second.

Now, that's completely beside the point, actually. Should the state make these kinds of license plates? Well, if there is a call for them, I guess it's okay, but I also agree that if people of other faiths want license plates then the state is obligated to do that for them, too. Personally, I think it's kind of a quagmire a state should probably not bother getting into. If you make a license plate for pro-lifers, then you'll need one for the pro-choice crowd. If you make a license plate for people who support gay rights, then you'll need one for people who do not. And so on.

Why can't people just get bumper stickers? :scratch:

I'm rather fond of my car magnet that says: Caution! Unsocialized Homeschoolers On Board! I don't need a "Homeschooling Rocks" license plate. :D


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Crucifer
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Posted: Sat 26 Apr , 2008 8:48 pm
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But how many of the people who get these plates will want them so that others can see them? (and by 'see', I mean 'see and think how great they are') A large proportion, I would imagine.

But that is, as you say, beside the point. The state shouldn't be issuing religious anything, unless it's going to have one for all religions. Otherwise, it's discrimination, pure and simple.

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Sat 26 Apr , 2008 9:27 pm
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Ehhh, I'm not sure many people would get them with the intention of showing off. Honestly, I think people would get them because they love God, and they think this would be a way to witness for Him and show their allegiance to their faith. That would be the very evangelical view of things. "If I get this, people will think about Jesus and maybe I'll get a chance to witness to them somehow."

But I guess some people might get it for the wrong reasons.


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Crucifer
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Posted: Sat 26 Apr , 2008 9:53 pm
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I think people would get them because they love God, and they think this would be a way to witness for Him and show their allegiance to their faith.
I agree that a lot of people would get it for this reason. I suppose my comment that "A big proportion" would get them for the wrong reasons is an exaggeration.

Personally, I wouldn't get them. If people are meant to think about Jesus, Jesus will make people think about him. I don't see why I should promote my faith through materialism, if you know what I mean. It just feels too much like "religious accessorizing" to me. Maybe this means I'm insecure in my faith. (I am, but that's a matter for another post)

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Sat 26 Apr , 2008 11:16 pm
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No, I don't think that makes you seem insecure at all. I wouldn't get them either, though I wouldn't care if someone else did. Really, to each his own. If a Jewish person wanted to paint Stars of David all over their car, I wouldn't care either.

I do have a fish symbol on my van. Why? It makes me smile when I see it. Plain and simple. My faith is the most important thing to me. Like anyone else who has a passion or a cause, I might have might a bumper sticker on my car for the simple reason that such-and-such is important to me.

It does make me think about it. I'm thinking we do lots of little things like that to display our personalities, or, at least, I do--and many others do, too. I wonder why we do???

(Maybe there's a deep reason--a cultural loneliness? Maybe it's just so I can pick my car out in the Wal-mart parking lot.)

All that being said, I won't get a personalized plate because it costs too darn much! And I'm not into that. If others want to, though, I don't care, but it does need to be fair.


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The Watcher
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Posted: Mon 28 Apr , 2008 4:53 am
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Personally, if Florida keeps electing such weirdos and nutjobs to their state government, well, then fine, have whatever you want on license plates. I think it is all quite silly and the only true argument I can see is that the state of Florida would be promoting a state religion if it did not offer every other religious option out there, which I think would defeat the ultimate purpose of the state's objective, to make money.

Anyone who thinks that they offer vanity plates for any other reason is a fool. And, yes, the "takers" are vain. One can use bumper stickers or little adhesive stickers or whatever they want to promote whatever they want. People are basically stupid. "Ooh, I need to proclaim my faith on a license plate on a gas guzzling polluting vehicle that I drive all over Florida because when I die, I go off to a better place where whatever I did as a real person no longer matters, neither do my carbon footprints." Whatever.

Give them their vanity plates. But, more important issues are still at large, and state legislatures do not deal with the BIG picture. Neither does the federal government. I could care less if they allowed nekkid pics of people on plates, who the heck really cares? Heck if the cross on a plate is what people want, give it to them, give them star of Davids, give them crescents and swords, give them praying Buddhas, and, so what? In the meantime, Florida is doing nothing but trying to make more money off of it. :P and, sadder still, those that would pay for these "Christian license plates" are not using their money the way Christ would have chosen. Sumptin to think about.
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