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Austrian incest case

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Nienor SharkAttack
Post subject: Austrian incest case
Posted: Mon 28 Apr , 2008 7:47 pm
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http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europ ... ef=edition

I suppose you've all heard about it, and I just picked a random link since the case is everywhere - but I thought I'd make a thread.

It's beyond words. Had it been a movie, I'd thought it over the top, and "No way that no one would find out!" and so on. But then it's like that - and all real.

All these people getting their lives ruined by one man's actions... :( How can someone do something like that? :(

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Posted: Mon 28 Apr , 2008 9:04 pm
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Its beyond frightening.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Mon 28 Apr , 2008 9:14 pm
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I just can't get my head around this one at all. I genuinley don't understand.

It was his daughter.

I just can't comprehend. How could anybody do that to thier own child? And grandchildren/children. It is wrong on every level.

Its been on the news all day, and the footage of the celler and just....

I really don't know what to say.

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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Mon 28 Apr , 2008 9:40 pm
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I don't understand how seven babies with the crying, food and cleaning involved didn't alert anyone. I hope the daughter and her children will be allowed to live quietly and in peace afterwards without a prurient world harassing them to tell their story.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Mon 28 Apr , 2008 10:18 pm
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From what I understand, this man lives in and owns a multi unit building, some obviously would be tenants. But, how does this guy's wife claim she was completely ignorant for 24 years? Her grandkids show up on the doorstep one day because her husband says the daughter "dropped" them off and she never raises an eyebrow? No one ever goes down into the basement? It is like "Silence of the Lambs" meets "Flowers in the Attic" times about 500 on the gross/ick meter. This guy took care of three of his "grandkids/kids" and none of the three ever said anything to anyone?

It mortifies me beyond words. Send the guy to jail in a basement cellar locked up for the rest of his days, never to see the sun or a blade of grass again.


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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Mon 28 Apr , 2008 10:32 pm
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Quote:
But, how does this guy's wife claim she was completely ignorant for 24 years? Her grandkids show up on the doorstep one day because her husband says the daughter "dropped" them off and she never raises an eyebrow?
Well, if she believed the "went off to wacko religious sect forbidding having children" in the first place... If it's true that she didn't know anything - and the Austrian police apparently believes this is the case - I suppose the explanation must be the same as for everyone else who "should have noticed": this is way beyong anyone's imagining...

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No one ever goes down into the basement?
The father/grandfather apparently was a very authoritarian figure in this home. So if he forbade it, I guess it was like the "No one ever goes into Father's study" of older times. Not saying it's normal or anything (and especially not in the 21st century...), but it's not something automatically pointing to... this. :(

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This guy took care of three of his "grandkids/kids" and none of the three ever said anything to anyone?
What would they say? As far as they must have known, they were living with grandpa and grandma because mummy wasn't present in their lives.


:(:(

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The Watcher
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Posted: Mon 28 Apr , 2008 10:52 pm
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What would they say? As far as they must have known, they were living with grandpa and grandma because mummy wasn't present in their lives.
So, "Grandpa" drugged the kids and took them upstairs to rejoin he and his wife? How did he get them all food and clothing and whatever down there? How could he do all of the "building" and construction in his cellar without anyone ever seeing him? The kids had never seen him before all of this? They did not know he came down and "visited" their mother? How could one man manage such subterfuge? Sorry, I find this beyond understanding. :(

TWENTY FOUR YEARS!!! :rage:


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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Mon 28 Apr , 2008 11:03 pm
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Are we misunderstanding each other? :) I thought you talked about the three kids that actually lived upstairs with grandma and "grandpa" - the kids who were "dumped" by their sect obsessed mother and then taken in my their grandparents; their father for some reason chose that three of the kids were to live with him and his wife, while the other three were to be kept locked in with their mother. These are the kids that went to school and so on - and obviously had no idea about the truth behind it all.


The three kids that actually lived with their mother, locked in... The oldest is 19 years old and has never seen the sun before now...

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Lidless
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Posted: Mon 28 Apr , 2008 11:19 pm
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I've seen his photo.

I'm not one to assume, but if I were a policeman, I would have arrested him on the street for something, anything.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Mon 28 Apr , 2008 11:28 pm
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Actually, I am talking about all six surviving children, three who were "chosen" to go upstairs, and the three that were not. Were the three allowed upstairs all taken there as infants? Our news here in the States has not been as detailed as what you across the sea are getting. I could maybe understand the wife's "ignorance" if the three children all showed up as babies or very young toddlers, is that what he did? All I know is that several of the children were later teens, the one who collapsed, for example, and then there was a boy who was not much younger, so were the oldest three kids the ones all kept in the cellar?

This is like the stories one hears about from time to time of "feral" children. Do the stories there indicate how badly off the three "hidden" children are? There was a case here several years ago of a girl who was hidden within a bedroom of her family home, she never turned out functional, although she would have otherwise been fine, as in no genetic or other defects. That alone was a story that made me break down and cry, they tried so hard to help the poor girl.


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Estel
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Posted: Mon 28 Apr , 2008 11:38 pm
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The Watcher wrote:
All I know is that several of the children were later teens, the one who collapsed, for example, and then there was a boy who was not much younger, so were the oldest three kids the ones all kept in the cellar?
The one who was taken to hospital was the oldest and was kept in the cellar with, I think, a 17 year old brother and the youngest, a 5 year old brother. From what I remember from the news stories, the three upstairs were between the ages of the 5 year old and the 17 year old, but I could be wrong.

God, it gives a whole new and more sinister meaning to the phrase "Upstairs, Downstairs" doesn't it :scared:


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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Mon 28 Apr , 2008 11:43 pm
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The Watcher wrote:
Were the three allowed upstairs all taken there as infants?
Yes. And as far as I know, Estel is right in what she's saying.


There was another child as well, a twin. He died shortly after his birth, and the father burned him in an oven to hide what had happened.

... :(

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 29 Apr , 2008 3:41 am
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The story has crossed the Atlantic. It was carried by our local news this evening.

It really does defy comprehension.

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vison
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Posted: Tue 29 Apr , 2008 4:08 am
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It sure as hell does defy comprehension. I can't quite wrap my mind around it.

I don't believe for one minute that this man's wife didn't know SOMETHING was going on. 24 years?

So this daughter of his was a prisoner for 24 years, had SEVEN children down there and no one knew? The ones kept in the basement never tried to escape? My god, this is beyond understanding. The daughter wasn't an infant when he locked her up for god's sake.

The daughter must have been simple-minded. There isn't much a person can say except the old beast ought to be crushed under a locomotive or something.

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Tue 29 Apr , 2008 4:45 am
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:bawl: My gosh, that's awful. Beyond awful. Beyond comprehension.

Wow! :nono:

I can't quite believe, either, that the wife didn't know something. And what child doesn't go and look where they've been expressly told not to?

I guess we'll probably find out that he abused the wife and the other children as well; it's the only thing that could explain their absolute obedience to him--they were terrified of him.

Truly sickening.

And it's just heartbreaking to think of all of those ruined lives. I'm not sure there's enough therapy in the world to help them....


Lali

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Estel
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Posted: Tue 29 Apr , 2008 9:33 am
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vison wrote:
So this daughter of his was a prisoner for 24 years, had SEVEN children down there and no one knew? The ones kept in the basement never tried to escape? My god, this is beyond understanding. The daughter wasn't an infant when he locked her up for god's sake.

The daughter must have been simple-minded.
From reports over here, she was not simple minded. God knows how long he kept her drugged and tied up though - that's how he got her down there in the first place. Once she had children, he might have threatened them to keep her quiet. As for the kids, it was the only world they ever knew, and he was the owner of that world. Escaping? - sound-proofed solid concrete walls and floors, a door that had an electric keypad lock on it, and rules against anyone going in the cellar itself, let alone near the door. I mean, this was an apartment building, not the basement of a house, and the guy who did it was the caretaker/owner? of the building.

And we don't know if or how many times she did try to escape. Normal women can be caught in highly abusive situations and feel like they can't escape, especially when they can't actually escape. Who knows what he threatened her with, or what sort of things he did to break her. If she was 11 when the abuse started, as she says, she was probably already broken when he locked her up.


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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Tue 29 Apr , 2008 1:52 pm
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Damn... The father/grandfather and his wife had six other children besides Elisabeth (he's a father of 13). Doesn't exactly reduce the tragedy... :(


They had a tenant. He's saying that he had heard babies crying (but thought it was the neighbour's), strange knocking sounds in the house and sounds as if someone walking (thought it was mice).

Again: one just doesn't imagine something like this going on...

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Pippin4242
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Posted: Tue 29 Apr , 2008 3:39 pm
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vison wrote:
So this daughter of his was a prisoner for 24 years, had SEVEN children down there and no one knew? The ones kept in the basement never tried to escape? My god, this is beyond understanding. The daughter wasn't an infant when he locked her up for god's sake.

The daughter must have been simple-minded.
No - he was obviously a very handy man, judging by the complexity of what he had built. He told his children that the door was booby-trapped with explosives, and the police seem to find this claim credible, because they are only investigating the basement with caution and following the old man's instructions.

*~Pips~*

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The Watcher
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Posted: Wed 30 Apr , 2008 4:25 am
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I am awaiting to see what this "person" is even charged with, not ignoring his already advanced age, what real justice will ever be found in this case? All I can think about is that daughter, Elisabeth, and the three "unchosen children" who were forced to live their lives down in some dank cellar with who knows what available...

I do not believe in vengeance and retribution, but at the same time this man is so over the top, I am assuming he is not legally insane, but, what does one do to such a horrible pervert and sociopathic individual? Sending him off to prison will not undo the years of horror that he inflicted on these family members. If it is at all possible, I would like to see some small measure of justice done, make "Grandpa/father work every day and whatever meager amounts he earns behind bars is sent to the children and daughter he abused so badly. And, put this creep into otherwise solitary confinement, no tv, no newspapers, no radio, no contact with anything except his mop or his laundry duty. No visits, nadda. If I could confine the "person" into the same environment which he put his family members into, I would, but, it would be considered torture. The best treatment for sociopaths is to deny them any opportunity to have influence at all, ever.


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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Wed 30 Apr , 2008 9:10 am
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Pippin4242 wrote:
vison wrote:
So this daughter of his was a prisoner for 24 years, had SEVEN children down there and no one knew? The ones kept in the basement never tried to escape? My god, this is beyond understanding. The daughter wasn't an infant when he locked her up for god's sake.

The daughter must have been simple-minded.
No - he was obviously a very handy man, judging by the complexity of what he had built. He told his children that the door was booby-trapped with explosives, and the police seem to find this claim credible, because they are only investigating the basement with caution and following the old man's instructions.

*~Pips~*
He also threatened to kill them with gas if they tried to resist.

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