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Unions (from Campaign 2008)

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 1:00 am
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It's an observation of reality.

To me, that means it's a fact.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 1:01 am
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If you present it as a fact, then please present authoritative sources to support it or please retract that slur against unions.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 1:03 am
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It is not a slur, but an observation.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 1:17 am
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[quote]It's an observation of reality.

To me, that means it's a fact.[/quote]



You said it was a fact.
Prove it with authoritative sources or retract it.

A fact is not something you believe.
A fact is not something which fits into your own value system.
A fact is not something that you want it to be because you want it to be.

A fact is not somethign which is one thing to you and a different thing to the rest of the world.

A fact can be verified by outside independent authorititive sources.

You have slurred the good name of millions of men and women who work in labor unions.
If you have any honor at all as a man you will either prove it with independent and authoritative sources or retract it.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 1:27 am
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sauronsfinger wrote:
If you present it as a fact, then please present authoritative sources to support it or please retract that slur against unions.
Please present authoritative sources to support that things presented as a fact required someone to present authoritative sources to support it.


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 1:35 am
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Here's an authoritative source: Me.

I'll author it for you right here.

You yourself, SF, have stated that all teachers who work the same hours are doing the same jobs, and should be compensated the same way. The Union should fight for this to be the case.

Lets say there's teacher M. Teacher M teaches math, has a graduate degree, but quite the private sector because he didn't like it. Gets his credential and teaches HS math ranging from algebra to calculus. He works hard for a few years, gets tenure, works hard for a few more years, his students do ok, say 90% of his students pass the courses. Then something goes wrong, he stops caring about the job. Starts to not care about the students, and his performance goes down. Now only 60% of his students pass. He blames it on kids not paying enough attention, no parental involvement, video games. He has a whole lot of studies to back up the poor performance of his students, and there is no accountability for his own lack of interest.

Now lets say there's teacher C. Teacher C teaches Chemistry. He got an undergraduate degree in education, and spent most of his free time and extra courses taking Chem classes and such. Could have probably gotten a Chemistry degree, but stuck with education as he wanted to be a teacher. Goes right out after getting his degree, and starts teaching high school. Works his guts out to build up local support for a good chemistry program. Gets students excited with fun and safe experiments, that teach them the basics they need as a foundation for any interested in chemistry or other related sciences. Develops relationships with city and business officials to help him get supplies for the classroom. Spends his whole life as a teacher in one school, getting students to pass his classes at a rate of 95%, with one of the highest percentage of people taking AP Chem, and scoring high on it as well in the entire state.

The teacher's union is dedicated to making sure Teacher M, gets the same wages and benefits as Teacher C. Granted, they may hold up Teacher C as a great example of their teachers. In fact, they'll probably use him as an example every time they try to negotiate more, or threaten a strike and show how damaging losing his teaching ability would be. Teacher M will never be brought up of course.

Of course, the state can't afford to pay all the teachers what Teacher C really deserves, because they're a public service and have only limited funds. But the union insists that Teacher M get the same pay and benefits as Teacher C.

This seems perfectly fair to the state, and it will hold off the threat of a strike, so that's the way things work.

Thus, Teacher C, who should be rewarded by vast raises throughout his entire career, has a modest set of pay raises and cuts as budgets demand from time to time. The union has hurt him despite his overperformance.

Teacher M, who should have been fired as soon as his performance dropped, is propelled forward to a long career of underperforming, but keeps getting paid the same as Teacher C, who has elevated his own mediocrity. The union has rewarded him despite his underperformance.

QED

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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 1:40 am
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No retractions are needed. People are entitled to their opinions whether they are baseless or not. Feel free to disagree with the opinion. Refrain from personally engaging and deal with the topic.

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Crucifer
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 1:43 am
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What may be a fact for Hal isn't necessarily a universal fact. The idea truth is a hazy notion at best, and a discussion better suited to philosophy.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 3:22 am
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hal and sf, you will disengage right now.

I have sent the last exchange to the Bike Racks. You two will either accept mediation, ignore each other, or the next round of fire gets you both confined to the Bike Racks for one week.


hal, regarding facts and reality, there's a fundamental flaw in your thinking. Consider this. A penny and feather fall from an equal height at different rates. One might, from that observation alone, reasonably conclude that gravity accelerates the penny faster than it accelerates the feather. Except that's not true. The acceleration of gravity is a constant on Earth. The feather is falling slower because of other forces in play, such as air resistance.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 3:32 am
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the only fact one can conclude from that is when you drop a penny and feather from equal hights in certain conditions... the penny will fall faster. Nothing more, nothing less.

You observe it, it's a fact.

You can attempt to discern other facts, but they might be disproven by other observations.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 4:04 am
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fact
observation
Not the same thing.

That you observe something does not make it the truth. Sometimes it is. But sometimes it isn't. Fact applies more to the meaning behind observation, or to multiple observations that had converged on the same thing. And just because you observed it doesn't mean it's correct or even true (sample bias ring any bells?). Recall the ancients who observed the sky and decided that it was true that the universe was geocentric.

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't use the words "fact" or "true" in anything academic writing. They're weird and murky terms. Not to be trusted. And when I state something as a fact I back it up either with my own data or a citation or both. The standards here are not the same, but it's something to think about at any rate.

And I really, really, have to figure out what the underlying cause behind a series of observations is so I gotta run.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 4:08 am
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and in this case, we're talking about logical conclusions obtained from hypothetical but possible situations, which have nothing to do with science or data in any way.

In fact, perhaps observation is the wrong word. logical conclusion based on reality? I don't know, seems a bit odd to get caught up in such terminology. It really is simply SF distracting from the obvious truth that Teacher's unions hurt good teachers and help bad ones by dragging pay and benefits to the middle, encouraging mediocrity.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 4:18 am
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Not sure the alternative is much better. One of the methods they use to assess teaching quality here at my university is to look at the average grade and fail rates. Seems like a great plan, right? Except the result has been grade inflation. That's true for a lot of other universities, but not all of them. My graduating GPA was one standard deviation out from the mean at my college, enough to win me academic honors, but still lower than what I've heard my boss quote as reasonable for incoming grad students. When I told him that I was an honors graduate and wouldn't've gotten in on that standard, he went bug-eyed.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 4:23 am
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Riverthalos wrote:
Not sure the alternative is much better. One of the methods they use to assess teaching quality here at my university is to look at the average grade and fail rates. Seems like a great plan, right? Except the result has been grade inflation. That's true for a lot of other universities, but not all of them. My graduating GPA was one standard deviation out from the mean at my college, enough to win me academic honors, but still lower than what I've heard my boss quote as reasonable for incoming grad students. When I told him that I was an honors graduate and wouldn't've gotten in on that standard, he went bug-eyed.

River, I have not made any claims on how to evaluate teachers. I know there are good ones and bad ones, though, and treating everyone the same is unfair to the good ones.

Rebecca, that may be a fair point. But I don't just keep asking the same thing over and over, this is a mischaracterization by SF. I ask a question, he twists it around and answers a different question. I then poitn out that that was not the question I asked, and clarify. He proceeds to twist it a different way, and answer yet a different question. Again I clarify, and the accusations start flying that I'm just repeating myself.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 4:41 am
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Discussions concerning the current dispute between members do not belong here. Please pick up the discussion from the first paragraph of the above post.

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Nin
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 11:13 am
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hal, how do you define a good teacher?

How do you measure it? By the grades of students? So, I don't know... this year I have two classes of the same degree and I'm reading the same book with them and they have the same test. First test, class A: 90% succes, class B: 70% failure. Am I a good teacher in class A and a bad one in class B? I renew my programm regularly, but this year I took a book a gain which I already read tow years ago. Not because I'm lazy, but because I liked it and it worked well and i don't have the time this year to prepare two new lectures because I'll make an exchange. But if criteria is that you have to renew programms, well I fail on one class, but again in the other, everything is shiny and new etc.

If students are content: well... if you want to turn school into a popularity contest, go for it. I have no problem with the fact that all my colleagues are paid the same as me and I really would find anything else demotivating (and I have left private school system where this can happen - usually what happens is that those teachers who teach prestigious branches as mathematics and mother tongue which you need to suceed are paid more, whereas those who teach arts and music and history and secondary branches get less...) I don't know how to teach mathematics well, and I also think it is good for a student to be get in contact with different teaching styles. What works for one student who needs incitation is a disaster for another who needs to be alone and think by himself.

So, how in a field where you make no money, you want to define who is a good teacher? What if half of my class had a different teacher the year before and neverdid passive in grammar and the other did it? Their results will not be the same! Who's to blame? And a teacher who does not invest that much can be a good life lesson because if you want to succeed you have to move your ass etc.

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Feredir
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 12:52 pm
 
 
Nin wrote:
So, how in a field where you make no money, you want to define who is a good teacher? What if half of my class had a different teacher the year before and neverdid passive in grammar and the other did it? Their results will not be the same! Who's to blame? And a teacher who does not invest that much can be a good life lesson because if you want to succeed you have to move your ass etc.
You assess the teacher with actual observations. As a supervisor I am responsible for completing yearly reviews on each of the officers assigned to me. I cannot base this simply on the number of reports, citations, calls for service, alarms responded to, etc etc. I need to have solid personal observations and documentation. Here's how I do this: I fall in on calls the officers' are sent on; I review their reports for accuracy, grammar, etc; I watch them as they interact with the public and other officers, I give them assignments and see how they do.
I have plenty of time to check on each of my officers and it is totally random so they cannot prepare.

If you get a below standard you lose your shift preference and get whatever is left open, usually 3pm-11pm and have to work it for the year. If during that year you improve and you receive a standard evaluation then you are returned to normal selection. You also are not considered for special assignments that may come up (detective, K-9, evidence technician, etc).

If anything in the evaluation is unjust, which we have has supervisors like this, then there is an appeal process through the union to right any wrongs.

If it works for law enforcement then it will work for others as well. Are there biases? Absolutely, but I have found that 98% of the supervisors are soft when it comes to evaluations and don't want to give a bad evaluation. That 2% is what the appeal process is for.

freddy


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 1:06 pm
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Regarding teacher pay: when a person decides to go into public education, they do not do this to become rich. They do however expect to be paid a wage that goes along with the degree they have earned and the difficulty of the job.

If all we did is pay teachers based on student grades, there would be no teachers who would teach in difficult or poor schools. Everyone would want to teach in the so called "good schools" where students get good grades.

Years ago, before the State of Michigan instituted the latest Frankenstein monster version of standardized testing, I was sent to help represent my school district at a Statewide meeting which was to debut the test and discuss it. They spent hours explaining the ins and outs of the tests to us and said the first years results would provide a baseline of scores and the State could then find out which schools were successful and which schools were not.

Several teachers there, including myself, pointed out that we did not have to wait
a year or two to find this out. We did not need the test to find this out. All you need is
1- a map of the State of Michigan
2- maps of the school districts
3- maps of individual school boundaries
4- census data on the average household income of families in that school

You can then take that information and predict with fairly reliable accuracy which schools will generate high test scores and which schools will generate low test scores. That is without one test question being answered by one student in one school. A group of us could have done that before we ever left the conference without one state dollar being spent on testing.

All you need is family income for students at the school and it is a very good predictor of general success of failure.

So if you are a teacher and you are judged by your students success, which school do you decide to teach at? Your choice is between Beverly Hills High School where the average family income is $189,000 a year, or you can select Jefferson High where the average family income is less than $30,000 a year.

If you really want to up the accuracy of the predictors, add in the percentages of two parent intact families. Combine that with the income levels and you really get accurate predictors.

We do not need complicated and expensive standardized tests to tell us how to identify successful schools from less successful schools.

Even within the same school, there is a system at work where certain teachers are rewarded with the best clases comprised of the most desirable children while other teachers are routinely given the worst classes with the least desirable children. I taught for 34 years and it was a reality of life. The principal designates 20% of the staff as "Master Teachers". You have to meet certain criteria such as having a Masters Degree and acertain number of years experience and a few other things, but beyond that is up up to them.

I was designated as a Master Teacher for the last half of my career. I got the best classes, the best schedule, the most desirable students, and other perks as well including student teachers from colleges to help teach your class and in fact take over for two months each semester. The other Master Teachers also enjoyed such a benefit. The worst schedules with the worst classes and the worst kids consistently went to the worst teachers in the building.

The rich got richer while the poor got poorer.

This is not theory. These are not hypotheticals. This is based on real life 34 years experience in the public school system.

Lets talk about standardized tests. In Michigan it is illegal to teach the test. It is illegal to teach last years test.

The obsession with standardized testing comes from the success of the Japanese model. I was sent to Japan to tour some Japanese schools and took seminars on the Japanese system.

There is one authority for education in Japan and it is a national authority. They plan the curriculum in each and every school in Japan. They select the books and all materials used in that class. They provide lesson plans for each and every school and each and every class. They provide quizzes, test and assignments for every class.

If you take 6th grade Geography at Manami Toyota school in Hiroshima, then move in the middle of the school year to Akira Maeda school in Sappporo, you will be placed in a 6th grade geography class using the same book that you used in your old school. The teachers will be on the same unit or lesson that you left off on. The format of lessons and tests will be the same.

And when the students take nationwide standardized tests, all of the questions on those tests are carefully dovetailed into that nationwide curriculum. Everything on that test should have been covered in class by the teacher using the national lesson plans.

Here in America there is no national educational system. There is no national curriculum. There are no standard texts. There are no standard tests. There are no standard lesson plans or lessons. All that is up to tens of thousands individual school districts and schools. And then we give the students national or state standardized tests. Much of what appears on the standardized test was never covered in class. And much of what teachers cover in class never appears on the standardized test.

Any person of intelligence can see the difference in the two nations and what the results will be.

This is without knowing anything else about the school, its administration, its annual budget, its per pupil expenditures, its class size limits, its staff or anything else except those two factors.

And please keep in mind that those two factors are beyond the control of the school district.

_________________

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Feredir
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 1:59 pm
 
 
SF, you see this is one of the things that if I were a union member I would fight. If all things are to be equal then things should be evenly spread, ie: student teachers, good students, etc. However, you do need your best subject teachers teaching the honors classes. If this is what is happening then I have no problem with it because it is what's best for the kids in that class.

The issue about smaller classes always comes up. If this is such an issue then why don't some schools support those that homeschool? By teaching our kids we are reducing class size. Sarah would frustrate a normal teacher because of her dyslexia and she doesn't belong in a special ed class because it is not an IQ issue. It's also not fair to the kids in the class. Even her psychiatrist said we should homeschool as long as we can because the public schools are not set up to handle dyslexics and private schools are only slightly better.

Now I'm not saying everyone should homeschool because not everyone should but those of us that can should be allowed to with no hassles.

freddy


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Unions (from Campaign 2008)
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 2:15 pm
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Freddy... I cannot speak to the issue of home schooling with any authority. I have read two books on it and attended some educational seminars on the subject. The AFT has a pretty comprehensive book on the subject which I got at a national AFT convention but only skimmed through it. I did not home school my own children and would not homeschool my grandson.

I will not judge others who have gone through the experience.

Public schools generally see homeschooling as somthing apart and completely separate from themselves. So there is not an inclination to use that as a resource to reduce class size.

The entire homeschool arguement often comes down to expertise, credentials and education of who is doing the teaching. If you want to pursue that, i would be happy to. But I imagine you probably already know the normal line of discourse.

It is good that you found a solution for Sarah. Glad to hear that.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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