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Rebecca
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 6:14 pm
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I'm going to lock this thread for a minute while I remove the unwanted posts. Sorry to those of you who are adding to the discussion, it'll just be a moment.

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Rebecca
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 6:19 pm
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Ok, it's unlocked. Continue the discussion.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 6:24 pm
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Again: technology has made it possible to maintain order in large operations, to do things we never could before. Take Wal-Mart, or any large corporation. They have over a million employees worldwide, yet they aren't falling apart and are one of the most successful, powerful businesses the world has ever seen. I see no reason why 10,000 reps, paltry in comparison, couldn't efficiently accomplish great things for the good of all.
It isn't an issue of technology. The issue is about the number of representatives and what can be accomplished with any efficiency.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 6:25 pm
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Why was my recent response to CG removed?

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Onizuka Eikichi
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 6:27 pm
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
Quote:
It isn't an issue of technology. The issue is about the number of representatives and what can be accomplished with any efficiency.
But it is about technology. Since we have said technology, I believe 10,000 reps can work together smoothly. Numbers are no excuse anymore.
sauronsfinger wrote:
from Onizuka
Quote:
Take Wal-Mart, or any large corporation. They have over a million employees worldwide, yet they aren't falling apart and are one of the most successful, powerful businesses the world has ever seen. I see no reason why 10,000 reps, paltry in comparison, couldn't efficiently accomplish great things for the good of all.
You do realize that Wal Mart is a private corporation and the House of Represenetaives is an integral part of the democratic function of representative government - right?

You do realize that Wal Mart has as its goal financial profit while the goal of the Congress is to represent the American people as part of its elected government - right?

You do realize that Wal Mart is a top down authoritative organization while Congress is a democratic organization that takes it orders from the bottom up - right?

You are comparing two very very different things who are not similar in any significant way.
[/quote]

That wasn't my point. Let me spell it out for you: modern technology can keep large groups of people and enormous operations running smoothly. Therefore, the argument that 10,000 reps is too much is irrelevant.

What are you saying, exactly? That said technology works for private groups but not public ones? You couldn't be more wrong. What keeps the military (arguably the largest and most cumbersome entity in the government) running smooth?

I really dislike saying the same thing over and over again. This is why I stopped posting one or two years ago. Talking to brick walls and people who argue for the sake of arguing is not stimulating, just irritating.

Last edited by Onizuka Eikichi on Wed 19 Nov , 2008 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 6:28 pm
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
Why was my recent response to CG removed?
They took the whole page, including one post by you, one by Onizuka, and one by me that weren't about the derail. They happened to be on the wrong page.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Wed 19 Nov , 2008 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rebecca
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 6:29 pm
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Sorry TED. It's the first thread I've ever had to split. Guess I did it wrong. Sorry about the few posts that got moved incorrectly.

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Onizuka Eikichi
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 6:32 pm
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Rebecca wrote:
Sorry TED. It's the first thread I've ever had to split. Guess I did it wrong. Sorry about the few posts that got moved incorrectly.
NO problem. I don't mind the occasional atomic weapon dropped on a thread. From the ashes! ;)

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 6:33 pm
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Oh well.

Okay, Onizuka, how would technology help pass a bill in a 10k House? I don't need to hear about how they could be in different rooms and transmit over a WAN or LAN. That's not an issue. The nuts and bolts of how to get 10k people looking at each other doesn't factor into how to get 10k people to listen to each other. Just saying "I believe 10,000 reps can work together smoothly" isn't saying much. 10k people could have 10k different opinions on a bill, or 5k different opinions, or 2500 different opinions. How do you get reconcile such a large grouping of opinions to accomplish anything in House?

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Onizuka Eikichi
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 7:04 pm
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
Oh well.

Okay, Onizuka, how would technology help pass a bill in a 10k House? I don't need to hear about how they could be in different rooms and transmit over a WAN or LAN. That's not an issue. The nuts and bolts of how to get 10k people looking at each other doesn't factor into how to get 10k people to listen to each other. Just saying "I believe 10,000 reps can work together smoothly" isn't saying much. 10k people could have 10k different opinions on a bill, or 5k different opinions, or 2500 different opinions. How do you get reconcile such a large grouping of opinions to accomplish anything in House?
Isn't that what democracy is supposed to be? Isn't that how it currently works? If the majority doesn't agree on something, generally that means the proposal is not very good for the majority. Right? Having more people won't affect the speed at which a good proposal gets through. Only the poor ones. IN THEORY, of course.

Last edited by Onizuka Eikichi on Wed 19 Nov , 2008 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 7:05 pm
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Yeah, well....my whole post about my evil plots to take over the univer....world was also moved. This taking over the world via the internet seems to be proving more difficult than I had imagined. I am running into too many plot holes.


Back to your reguallarly scheduled discussion.





Igor did you say the name on the brain was Abby Normal? :doh1:

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 7:07 pm
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The UK has 646 Members of Parliament for around a population of around 60 million. My MP represents something like 100,000 people. (Can't be faffed to look it up exactly) So there is room for some expansion over the number of Representatives that you have. The Chamber in which our MP's meet and debate is also deliberately made too small for the numbers. On most occasions, the Chamber is not very full. On important occasions it is packed to the rafters.
A lot of the work of democratic representatives is spent in smaller committees and in researching and responding to their electors (or at least it should be) as much as it in debate and voting on bills.
So I would think there is room for some expansion but the higher figures mentioned remove any chance of human interaction. What would happen is that inner cabals would conduct the real business and would find a way of buying the votes of the lesser representatives. Much like everywhere at present I suppose but likely enough to quench any enthusiasm for such a drastic change.
There are better ways for smaller parties to find a voice but the stumbling block is always the parties in power. The only way is for the smaller parties to gain enough votes to get power in the traditional way.
And then of course they will be equally as unwilling to dilute their power. :)

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Rebecca
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 7:17 pm
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If you guys want I can attempt to put the misplaced posts back. It might make the conversation even more disjointed, though. Let me know and I can try! :)

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 7:34 pm
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Don't bother, Rebecca.

Tosh, you're right that America does have some wiggle room with the number of representatives. I think a small increase might work at least to test the waters.
Quote:
Having more people won't affect the speed at which a good proposal gets through. Only the poor ones. IN THEORY, of course.
No, because what 100 persons views as a good proposal, 100 persons view as a bad proposal. A lot of ideas work IN THEORY. It doesn't make them good.

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Onizuka Eikichi
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 7:43 pm
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
Don't bother, Rebecca.

Tosh, you're right that America does have some wiggle room with the number of representatives. I think a small increase might work at least to test the waters.
Quote:
Having more people won't affect the speed at which a good proposal gets through. Only the poor ones. IN THEORY, of course.
No, because what 100 persons views as a good proposal, 100 persons view as a bad proposal. A lot of ideas work IN THEORY. It doesn't make them good.
Right. And that is precisely the way it works now. Adding more people to the body won't change the fact that some think this way and some think that way. Instead of 217 vs 218 you'd have 5,050 vs 5,049. But that might be over simplifying. Sometimes there are more than 2 sides to an issue - which is precisely the reason why I think more reps would be a good idea - to make sure opinion c and d also have adequate representation.

Edit: as others have stated, it doesn't necessarily need to be 10,000+ reps - that's just the number that's been floating around so that's the one I have been using. An increase to 1,000 may be sufficient. I don't know. All I do know is that an increase of some degree makes sense.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:03 pm
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Sometimes there are more than 2 sides to an issue - which is precisely the reason why I think more reps would be a good idea - to make sure opinion c and d also have adequate representation.
More opinions may lead to better bills. We currently have 435 opinions and we get some good and some bad bills. Increasing it to 10k offers no guarantee that more opinions will lead to agreement any more efficiently.

The increase doesn't have to be 10k, if it was 1k, the situation would be somewhat similar: slower than today, but faster than 10k.

Increasing the numbers of reps should be done slowly. Let's 50 more, then evaluate how the House is working.

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:12 pm
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Just a gloss on the one representative per 100,000 population. A month or so back I sent an e-mail to my MP on a local matter. I had a reply from him via his Blackberry within an hour that addressed the matter at some length and also showed that he knew me and my former employment. Now I'm not saying he knows all his constituents that well but our paths haven't crossed that often. He knows his community pretty well.

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Onizuka Eikichi
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:23 pm
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ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:
Just a gloss on the one representative per 100,000 population. A month or so back I sent an e-mail to my MP on a local matter. I had a reply from him via his Blackberry within an hour that addressed the matter at some length and also showed that he knew me and my former employment. Now I'm not saying he knows all his constituents that well but our paths haven't crossed that often. He knows his community pretty well.
There's that technology I was talking about. It's amazing how quickly and easily people can get information around these days. Anywhere. Anytime. :)

So I guess that settles it, TED. We can agree, at the very least, that *an* increase in the number of seats is warranted. How much of an increase: who's to say? :)

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 11:24 pm
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It does settle it. Disagreeing folks can usually find some common ground to meet on.

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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 11:43 pm
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I am curious to what the perceived outcome is for allotting more seats. I realize people feel they would be better represented, but I guess I am asking what the overall outcome would be. Would the House be more fractured? With partisan politics as the rule of the day, would this just ensure a larger old boy network? Would this actually address any issues people have with Congress? Would there just be the same problems spread amongst more people? Do people feel the proportional split would be any different and is this a measure to foster an atmosphere for third parties to become better involved?

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