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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 5:44 pm
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Try googling any combination of expanding congress to 10,000. The results are very interesting and revealing.

One of the proponents of this idea is a guy named Bryan Brickner. Funy thing about Brickner is he is a strong backer of a tiny political party that can't get anyone elected either. He is a Green. And if you go to his blog, he goes on and on and on about how this scheme is the way that Greens will finally get into Congress. The idea being that if you have more than 10,000 representatives, some teeny tiny parties that now cannot draw flies will somehow, someway, magically elect some of their folks to Congress. He claims the same would be true for the Libertarians, Socialists and others who now only get less than one-half of one percent of the vote for President.

So, we the American people, are asked to entertain the idea of increasing the size of Congress by more than twentyfold - to an absurd number that is probably beyond managable - for the expressed purpose of finally including some teeny tiny parties that cannot get elected any other way.

I guess if you cannot play the game the way it has been for 220 years, then you try to get the rules changed expressely for your and your own selfish political purposes.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The Electoral College
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 5:49 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
Its a wonderful thing when all the pieces of the puzzle come together so you can see the actual picture.

Lets see what we have here:

Mark Thornton is a Libertarian.
Not relevant to the soundness of the arguments themselves.
sauronsfinger wrote:
Libertarians are an extremist group supported in elections by the tiniest numbers of voters.
Not relevant to the soundness of the arguments themselves. Also an attempt at ad hominem (he's a libertarian therefore he's automatically wrong and you can ignore his arguments) and an ad populum (they're unpopular therefore they're wrong).
sauronsfinger wrote:
Libertarians despise much of what government is and what it stands for and what it does.
Not relevant to the soundness of the arguments themselves. Also an attempt at ad hominem (he's a libertarian therefore he's automatically wrong and you can ignore his arguments).
sauronsfinger wrote:
But Libertarians are failures at the ballot box so they must come up with some sort of alternative strategy to implement their anti-government beliefs.
Not revelant to the soundness of his arguments themselves.
sauronsfinger wrote:
Mark Thornton appears on the prestigious "Lew Rockwell Show".
Not relevant to the soundness of the arguments themselves. Also an attempt at ad hominem (he's a libertarian therefore he's automatically wrong and you can ignore his arguments).
sauronsfinger wrote:
Rockwell is a noted Libertarian gatherer and outlet for all things Libertarian and anti-government.
Not relevant to the soundness of the arguments themselves. Also an attempt at ad hominem (he's a libertarian therefore he's automatically wrong and you can ignore his arguments).
sauronsfinger wrote:
Thonton, throws out his theory that maybe this idea of small government is bad. When Rockwell picks himself up off the floor, Thornton explains that he is not talking about government services or programs, just the way the House of Representatives functions. What we need is 10,000 people serving in the House of Representatives.
Not relevant to the soundness of the arguments themselves.
sauronsfinger wrote:
There is more than one way to skin a cat says the old adage. And it appears that the Libertarians are now taking a page from other extremist groups whose anti-government mantra has been "bleed the beast". In other words, destroy the government and its power by bleeding it dry of money, support and resources.
Finally an actual argument. It is your opinion that if the federal government had then thousand more employees, it would have far too many employees and therefore collapse.
sauronsfinger wrote:
So the Libertarians want government out of our lives and to reduce its power in our lives. What better way to do it than this ridiculous idea to expand Congress to 10,000 people and thereby destroying Congress as any sort of functioning body.
Inserting the word "ridiculous" doesn't make it so.
sauronsfinger wrote:
If I were a Libertarian, I would say it is a master stroke of Machivallien political evil genius.
Inseting the words "Machivallien" and "evil" doesn't make it so.
sauronsfinger wrote:
As I am not a Libertarian, its just a foolish and blantantly transparent ruse.
Inserting the word "foolish" doesn't make it so.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue 18 Nov , 2008 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 5:50 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
I guess if you cannot play the game the way it has been for 220 years, then you try to get the rules changed expressely for your and your own selfish political purposes.
You mean 88 years. Before that the numbers increased with the population. For 132 years the "ridiculous proposal" was the standard operating procedure.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Onizuka Eikichi
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 5:54 pm
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Ara-anna wrote:

It would make it un-functional in the fact that a personal vote spoken by the person can not be contridicted. As an Adminstrator for a city, I would never and the laws would not allow me to ever, never, ever accept a vote from a City Councilor via email or fax or any electronic media. They have to, by law, vote in person or not be counted. Those are the laws, they are there to protect the people voting as well as those people the represent. It would be far to easy for people to either hack into the system, call in votes or other wise change the actual vote and not be the elected offical. There are laws in place to stop exactly that.

Besides as a taxpayer I want my representatives to be at the meeting, not sitting on their collective hind ends in Hawaii drinking a Mai Tai and emailing their vote in. I want them there to argue for my rights, and I think it is important that they be in the same building to do so. But that's just me, I want my representatives to actually show up for work, not phone it in.
But people do vote electronically now. There are ways to verify identity, and systems are quite secure these days. And I don't understand why you people think I am referring to "phoning it in" or "emailing it in." These methods of communication really are archaic. (Already? Yes.)

You know how in the movies big companies have flat-screens around a table for their meetings? Yeah. They do that in real-life, too. And obviously, it works. Saves huge amounts of money and time, and, going back to the issue of security and identity, since you can see their face right there on the screen....it's no more an issue than it is in person.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 6:05 pm
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using electronic votes is still fairly unsafe and too easily messed with. Plus it's heck of a lot easier to call some one on the carpet over a vote when they were actually in attendance of the meeting that was held. There would be too many representatives weasle out of unpopular votes if they could say, but I was on my computer and I thought we were discussing this issue thats why I voted this way.

Plus I have seen what comes out of Hollywood, and thanks but no thanks. Maybe your representatives can do that and you can pay for the lawsuits that insue, and they will.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 6:07 pm
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We differ then and that is fine with me. I see this as a plot and scheme by parties like the Greens and Libertarians to selfishly put themselves into government because they are terrible failures under the present system.

I further see the Libertarian scheme at work to weaken the power and credibility of government by turning Congress into an unworkable body that will in itself weaken and maybe destroy government.

If you find certain points not relevant - that is fine. I find them more than relevant... revealing also to the true motives at work here by sinister forces out to weaken America and its people.

The thing that comforts me is that this scheme is going absolutely nowhere outside of Lew Rockwell and friends. And that is pretty much the same as going absolutely nowhere.

And that makes me very please indeed. :cheers:

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Jnyusa
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 6:12 pm
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Not to get involved in a pissing contest here, but I'd like to toss in the fact that this is an observation I made about 15 years ago while researching post-colonial economic activities. And the small number floated here - @ 4300 - is the same number I came up with when thinking about what expansion would be necessary to restore some credibility to the House of Representatives.

In the 2006 elections, a congressperson in my district represented about 150,000 voters. Our total PA population is 12.4 million and we have 19 congresspersons, so one rep per 650,000 people, roughly, and the number participating as voters varies naturally from election to election.

The displacement of citizen representation by lobby power is most certainly an artifact of this inflation in the number of people that each congressperson represents.

Unfortunately I have to agree that increasing the number of congresspersons tenfold is not a realistic option, but some restructuring of the way Congress does business would seem to be in order.

It would be nice if people in the thread could discuss practical solutions, ways to increase citizen participation and congressional responsiveness, given the level of representation we've had to settle for.

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Onizuka Eikichi
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 6:14 pm
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Ara-anna wrote:
using electronic votes is still fairly unsafe and too easily messed with. Plus it's heck of a lot easier to call some one on the carpet over a vote when they were actually in attendance of the meeting that was held. There would be too many representatives weasle out of unpopular votes if they could say, but I was on my computer and I thought we were discussing this issue thats why I voted this way.

Plus I have seen what comes out of Hollywood, and thanks but no thanks. Maybe your representatives can do that and you can pay for the lawsuits that insue, and they will.
There is something to be said for doing things in person, yes. I can agree with that.

But, an inexpensive, effective system to hold real-time meetings with 10,000+ people is entirely plausible with today's technology. That's the point I was trying to make in an attempt to shoot down SF's accusations of cost and efficiency of a 10,000+ member house.

Just one option. There may be other solutions to get better representation.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 7:30 pm
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Ara-anna wrote:
using electronic votes is still fairly unsafe and too easily messed with. Plus it's heck of a lot easier to call some one on the carpet over a vote when they were actually in attendance of the meeting that was held. There would be too many representatives weasle out of unpopular votes if they could say, but I was on my computer and I thought we were discussing this issue thats why I voted this way.

Plus I have seen what comes out of Hollywood, and thanks but no thanks. Maybe your representatives can do that and you can pay for the lawsuits that insue, and they will.
Actually, it can be very safe. To do so, the electronic communication system must be isolated. It must have absolutely no communication contacts with the outside, only with itself. Every aspect of it, from the terminals to the central host must be isolated from all other computers. It will be impossible to surf the internet. No wireless, it must all be hardwire. A parallel system with internet connectivity can be made available, but it cannot be used for any official votes or official communications.

Anytime, even under the current system, the reps can claim they were voting on something else. That's just laziness.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 7:47 pm
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Regardless of the electronic fantasies anyone here has of what may or may not be off in the distant Brave New World of Cyberspace, such discussion completely misses the point that Ara-anna made a bit ago.

She wants her representative there in Washington where she knows he/she is and not on some beach in Hawaii. I agree. I suspect lots of folks do. I want my Congressperson to look in the face of other such people. I want them where the action is and that is Washington DC.

And I kinda like the like the old fashioned way of having to look into somebodys eyes before you cheat them or double cross them. This grand electronic cyber space scheme would just make it too easy to have even more bad deals in Congress with 10,000 of them cocooned in their own little world and their own private little reality.

But for me, its all about the motivation behind this scheme. Its a pure selfish powergrab on the part of a few extremists who cannot get any political power any other way. I am certainly not rewarding those motivations.

And I am not about to be party to seeing an unworkable and unmanageble scheme be foisted upon our government just so we can watch it fail and undermine the very idea of representative government.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 7:49 pm
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Under my description of a secure system, they do have to be there, in the building, in the room. That's part of maintianing system integrity.

*ignoring parts of that post that didn't contain actual arguments*

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 8:05 pm
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10,000 in one room.

Its back to the basketball arena... but only with desks and lots of fancy electronics.
Better make it a football stadium to also accomodate their assistants and staff.

And thats 10,000 offices as well. 10,000 secretaries. 10,000 more salaries multiplied by their staff salaries and expenses.

We are going to need another major tax hike on everybody just to fund this scheme to allow some tiny parties into Congress.

Sorry, not a good idea.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 8:08 pm
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Well, by all means, lets not do something that would be hard. Americans have never done anything like that...

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 8:12 pm
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It's not like the U.S. government doesn't show a proclivity in building large and imposing office buildings. Official buildings are so rare these days.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 8:25 pm
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
Ara-anna wrote:
using electronic votes is still fairly unsafe and too easily messed with. Plus it's heck of a lot easier to call some one on the carpet over a vote when they were actually in attendance of the meeting that was held. There would be too many representatives weasle out of unpopular votes if they could say, but I was on my computer and I thought we were discussing this issue thats why I voted this way.

Plus I have seen what comes out of Hollywood, and thanks but no thanks. Maybe your representatives can do that and you can pay for the lawsuits that insue, and they will.
Actually, it can be very safe. To do so, the electronic communication system must be isolated. It must have absolutely no communication contacts with the outside, only with itself. Every aspect of it, from the terminals to the central host must be isolated from all other computers. It will be impossible to surf the internet. No wireless, it must all be hardwire. A parallel system with internet connectivity can be made available, but it cannot be used for any official votes or official communications.

Anytime, even under the current system, the reps can claim they were voting on something else. That's just laziness.
And it is all easily hacked with one tool. I have seen too many 'secure' places gotten into by the phone company. My ex-husband used to simply hook up his butt-set to the telephone line and make long distance calls on the line, just because he could. Even WIFI has a hard line somewhere, and where those lines are at, they can be broken into. I know exactly how fragile and unsecure our nations phone, internet and communications really are, and have said that 150 people stragegically placed would easily bring this nation to its knees within a matter of minutes.

That said I don't think there is fair representation because of the increase in population, but I don't think it would require 10,000 more people.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 9:33 pm
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Not the system I'm describing. That's why I was specific about it not having any connection to the outside and not having any wireless access. Hacking into an unpoliced phone line is one thing. Hacking into an isolated government system requires physical access to the cables, access that is strictly guarded. I've worked on government systems that have said isolation, and to compromise it would be a major undertaking, far more ambitious than 150 people taking down the nation's phone system.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 10:43 pm
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regardless of all the incredibly fascinating techie mumbo jumbo and what would work and what would not....
it hardly justifies changing our entire way of assembling Congress just to satisfy a few extremists who cannnot otherwise get elected under the normal rules that everyone else observes.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 10:46 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
regardless of all the incredibly fascinating techie mumbo jumbo and what would work and what would not....
it hardly justifies changing our entire way of assembling Congress just to satisfy a few extremists who cannnot otherwise get elected under the normal rules that everyone else observes.

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it wouldn't work.

I don't think anyone is advocating changing things to satisfy any extremists.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 11:26 pm
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It is the extremists that are proposing the change.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: Congress
Posted: Tue 18 Nov , 2008 11:50 pm
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I think our representation is very wanting at times, but I am not sure throwing more people into the House will solve that. Especially those kinds of numbers. Wouldn't it be more feasible to increase the Senate?

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