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halplm
Post subject: badly thought out idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 8:27 pm
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...

Last edited by halplm on Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Onizuka Eikichi
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 8:45 pm
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Of course it needs to be addressed. It falls under "staying on topic" at the very least. Many discussion boards I frequent permanently (IP) ban users who "hijack" threads (i.e. change the subject, spam, harass other users), often without a warning (they expect you to read the rules BEFORE you start posting - imagine that). I think such standards are entirely reasonable. If you didn't read the terms and conditions, too bad for you.

Last edited by Onizuka Eikichi on Wed 19 Nov , 2008 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 9:51 pm
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I'll bite.

In the debate after Joe the Plumber came to light Obama explained what he meant by "spread the wealth". The left-leaning media went after Joe the Plumber because he turned out to be a liar. I fail to see the big injustice done to Joe when he committed an injustice to Obama.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 9:57 pm
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I. give. up.

Last edited by halplm on Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:05 pm
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:popcorn:

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:05 pm
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Last edited by halplm on Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:20 pm
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Oh dear, calm down.

Poster A's idea may have merit, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Poster B also thinks it has merit. The issue you seem to be addressing is that Poster B should at least hear out Poster A before coming to a conclusion to A's idea. I think that is a good thing.

The problem occurs when Poster A's idea is unpopular or on the fringe. Poster B then sees no reason to engage the idea because the contradiction is self-evident. Here is an example:

Poster A: The Holocaust did not happen the way the history book claims. The number six million came about to demonize the NAZIs and isn't accurate to what the real numbers where, which is considerably less. Let's debate.

Poster B: I refuse to debate this because you are self-evidently wrong.

Now that is extreme, but I wanted to be 100% clear in my example. There are opinions that will automatically be disregarded. Racial superiority is another example.

Another example, less extreme, is this:

Poster A: I think there is a problem here with opinions being stifled.

Poster B: I don't see it.

Poster A: It is there.

Poster B: Show me.

Poster A: How can you not see it?

And so forth.

In this example, like any debate, a real might exist or it may be in Poster A's mind. Poster A has the burden of proving the claim of stifled opinions. Poster B should listen without showing contempt for A's opinion.

If Poster A thinks his or her ideas are being pigeon-holed, then Poster A should re-think his or her approach to the subject. A strong post with solid claims will be harder to pigeon-hole. Because A is making the claim, it is his or her burden to adequately prove that an injustice is happening or that his or her opinion is more correct. That's how debate works. Sometimes an opinion doesn't gain ground, and this can be for a variety of reasons, but the proponent should have the fortitude to re-tool his or her idea, or back off until another time arises.

Is that what you were looking for, hal?

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Dawnnamira
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:22 pm
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Actually, from what I've seen about 'Joe the Plumber' it was not that he was 'lying' but that he was attempting to blame the Democrats for stuff that he could have overcome if he actually wanted to do so.

You hear that now that he's famous he's going to abandon his dreams of being a licensed plumber and go to Nashville?

I don't really blame people for thinking he's being personally attacked, but I think people need to step back and think before spouting accusations...And no, Hal, this is NOT directed at you...just clarifying that so you don't get pissed at me too.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:25 pm
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No, TED, that is not it at all.

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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:28 pm
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I think at this time it is best to try and steer posts on topic rather than split. I would only split posts if a different discussion arises or if there is a melee in the middle of a discussion. It seems in this instance there was/is some confusion as to the topic and there isn't much to split off.

Step one in righting this issue is for people to assess their own posts and see they are speaking to the topic and progressing the discussion. Phrases like, "you think" and "you feel" should be avoided.
This issue is best addressed internally and not externally. On this board especially where there is less moderation or member moderation.

edit: Well I was beaten to it. Nevermind the first part.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:31 pm
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...

Last edited by halplm on Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:33 pm
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Well, I'm not exactly sure what hal was looking for in his initial question, but I believe that TED's post is right on target for explaining some of the problems I've seen with discussion in general around here. :)


Edit: Hal, since you were the one who brought up the example of Joe the Plumber, I think it's fair for others to explain why they believe that example is inappropriate. I do not believe it is necessary to split posts regarding to Joe the Plumber. That is a fair point of discussion based on your initial post which made some assumptions that could legitimately be challenged.


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:36 pm
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Last edited by halplm on Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:37 pm
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I am not going to split these posts. I disagree with you that they are all off-topic. It is your responsibility to explain in your initial post exactly what you want to be discussed, and I see a legitimate effort from everyone who has posted (aside from those posts that have been removed already to the Bike Racks) to discuss your original topic. If you would like the discussion to continue in a different direction, you must explain yourself more clearly.


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Dawnnamira
Post subject: Re: badly thought out idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:38 pm
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Or the thread could be deleted, since there's really no point in having a thread with '...' as the only post.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: badly thought out idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:38 pm
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forget it. IT's obvious people here do think it's ok to attack the poster rather than the idea.

My question's answered.

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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: Attacking the person rather than the idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:38 pm
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Splitting is not the only option in a thread to get it back on topic, and I am no big fan of splitting except in certain circumstances. Steer the discussion back on topic.
If another ranger feels differently, have at it.

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Dawnnamira
Post subject: Re: badly thought out idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:40 pm
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Seriously, hal.......ask good questions, get good answers.

Yes, we were confused.

Now we're getting even more confused because you've just suddenly thrown in the towel and you seem to be mad at everyone.

And I'm not going to say what's going through my head right now because it doesn't need to be said.

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Elian
Post subject: Re: badly thought out idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:41 pm
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I agree with Holby and actually thought the thread could easily have gone on to a discussion of the original topic with a tiny bit of patience and rational explanation. Most people here are willing to stay on topic if they're clear on what the topic actually is.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: badly thought out idea
Posted: Wed 19 Nov , 2008 10:42 pm
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my question was clear, people chose to ignore it, or distort it, or go off on something else entirly. Well, most of them.

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