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The term is "ad hominem"

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halplm
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 1:45 am
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I've read more than I ever care to about ad hominem arguments, TED. I personally don't think they are valid in any way that SF uses them. He uses them to attack, and try to undermine someones "right" to voice their opinion. He refuses to debate their ideas, and now has a nice nifty thread to point to , and claim it's all "proper debate."

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 1:51 am
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Honestly, I have my doubts as to how well you understand ad hominems. Your example was not accurate, and I don't know what comments you are referring to when you say that sf uses them to attack you.

There are two ways to voice your opinion: rationally, and irrationally.

No, sf doesn't have a thread that he could point towards to justify anything. This thread has no authority over another poster, and all of the information contained in my first post is freely available online.

ETA: If I have the inclination, I will search TORC for a thread between Leonides and I where I consistently point out his consistent logical fallacies. You can, if I post the link, tell me if what I did constitutes your idea of harassing in a debate.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 2:30 am
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I did not say pointing out ad hominems was harassment, I said constantly using them to deflect away from actual discussion was harassment.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 2:30 am
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from Halplm
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I've read more than I ever care to about ad hominem arguments, TED.
But you have been talking of nothing else for one week straight. Other than attacking me repeatedly despite being told many times in many places DO NOT ATTACK me when I am not here to defend myself. But you persisted still the same undaunted by the call for sheer decency.

TED researched the very logical fallacies you complained about. TED provided everyone - including you - links to these. In at least two of them were found explainations of when Ad Hominems are a perfectly fine and acceptable use in debate. But you ignore this because it does not fit into your own line of victimhood and attack.

You did not like his research because it did not permit you to reframe rules of debate to what you wanted .... and no other member agreed with you.

Many many people here have told you this ... and much more. But still you plod on as if obsessed and captivated.

You brought up Ad Hominems. So now you are stuck with them. You dug your own grave and now you do not like the smell of the upturned dirt.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 2:33 am
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Oh, I'm very aware of how the whole idea has backfired, and I know how much you're loving it.

Do not accuse me of making attacks against you without providing proof. I have done no such thing.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 2:39 am
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Hal, you accused sf of attacking you without providing proof in the first post on this page. If you are going to call someone out, make sure you aren't doing the same thing on the same page.
hal wrote:
He uses them to attack, and try to undermine someones "right" to voice their opinion.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 2:42 am
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See the thread with 25 of his posts doing exactly that in the business room.

I have more than enough proof.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 2:48 am
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I'm not going to go hunting down your proof for you. Would you care to post a couple here, or maybe tell me the title of the thread? If you make a claim, it is your responsibility to provide the evidence, not tell me to go find it myself.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 2:50 am
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The request for a hearing against SF, started by me.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 2:52 am
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It got moved to the bikeracks, which I think was inappropriate, but whatever
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5827" target="_blank

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 3:06 am
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I disagree that sf used ad hominem arguments to shut you up. You seemed to be able to continue debating. Now, did sf make a lot of posts that are personal attacks? I'd say that's closer to the truth, but I have a very strict definition of personal attacks--those wouldn't deter me. I think sf committed these types of posts as often as you committed the argument from authority fallacy. I don't see you as the victim here. I would suggest you debate more and more to thicken your skin.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 3:09 am
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i debate fine, and SF refuses to argue with what I say, and attacks instead. I am not the only person he does this with. CG sees the same thing, Solicitr on HOF sees the exact same thing.

The only problem is, since 90% of people on these boards agree with SF, they don't CARE that opposing views are shut down and stifled.

It doesn't matter how tough I am, if he never engages in the actual debate, but only attacks, and the attacks increase in their rhetoric and derail the entire thread, SF succeeds in a different way. Still shuts me up, as the discussion is ruined, and then I get blamed for "board disruptions" to boot.

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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 3:21 am
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Hal you continue to suppose what people think based on what you perceive is happening and you surmise what is happening because of that. You have no idea what my thoughts are on SF, CG or anything else. Nor of the other 89.9% of the supposed rest of the board. Stop making assumptions because you are not happy with the results. Stop accusing people of things that doesn't even remotely resemble what is going on.

The rangers past and present dealt with things as they saw fit. When you are a ranger you can do the same. We did our best to use as little force as possible and to try to let things work themselves out. When we thought things went over the line we took action. If you would like heavy handed modding when you deem fit, then enter the pool. Until then we will do as we see fit.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 3:41 am
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That is fine Hal. I think that is progress with you realizing how all this Ad hominem stuff has backfired upon you. That is how improvement is made. In the future you might stay away from lines of debate that are not thoroughly researched by you before you decide to use them as a weapon. But thats just some friendly advice.

I am quitting for the night.

Happy Thanksgiving to all. :toast:

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halplm
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 3:49 am
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It did not backfire because I was wrong, it backfired because people don't care that you abuse the tactic.

Your accusation that it was not thoroughly researched is absurd, and I request you self-moderate and remove it, as it is incorrect, as is your statement that I intended to use it as a weapon.

your advice is not friendly, and you are being deceptive to suggest so.

quitting for the night is the best thing you've done all day.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 10:13 am
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Hal, you were wrong in your first example of an "ad hominem".

Here is where you need to develop a skin. Just as much as sf made an accusation, it doesn't negate your accusations. If you ask someone to self-moderate, you have to be willing.

How do you know sf's advice isn't friendly? Can you read minds? You are begging a question here.

I think that this is a thread that will get nothing accomplished.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 12:13 pm
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SF's advice is obviously not friendly to anyone who has ever paid attention to his posting whatsoever.

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 2:31 pm
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One thing that has mystified me is that you claim sf has shut you up and stifled you. Could you provide evidence of that?

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Eruname
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 4:46 pm
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sf has been friendly to me and we've had some not-so-nice disagreements.

.
.

Seriously guys, I don't know why we bother. We all sound like a broken record. hal has had all this stuff told to him numerous times at different message boards over the years. He wants others to change yet appears to be incapeable of it himself. So really, we're all wasting our breath...or actually fingers! :P

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halplm
Post subject: Re: The term is "ad hominem"
Posted: Thu 27 Nov , 2008 6:43 pm
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ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:
One thing that has mystified me is that you claim sf has shut you up and stifled you. Could you provide evidence of that?
Anyone talking about unions and how bad teachers unions are for the best teachers?

That was my argument. SF took the board down the hell it was for a few days, just so he didn't have to actually make arguments against that point.

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