board77

I agree with Estel. I find that line of thinking pretty scary and quite a slippery slope.


Lali

They'll need bigger jails!

(weird! When I try to select a smiley it jumps to the top of the thread.)

Stellie,

I know it is scary, that is why I actually took part in a survey under my real name when I know I should not since I am currently trying to enter the Ministry of Foreign Affairs but I thought it my duty to write something.

They want people to realise that, like long-smoking people with cancer, overweight or obese people can be a burden to society because they cost more money than the others to the health care system. I do realise that this way of describing things is already biased don't you guys be mad at me , these are not my words but those found in the article to which I reacted.

Now, they don't know how they are going to change the rules.
One thing that they are going to change in a positive way is the creation of hospital beds that can actually bear the weight of obese people. To this day the maximum weight that these beds can bear is 120kg approximately 250lbs and it is now not enough.
The one thing that they don't deal with but which is going to put pressure on nurses and docs is that well these people cannot be helped into their beds the same way than others. I know my dad has been having back pain for 5 years because he had to help a 125kg patient to get into his bed and he's not that young anymore.

One thing that they are willing to modify too apparently... you know it's different what they say they want to do and what they do in the end.
- Determine whether the overweight/obese condition is due to medical condition or to the fact that some people (and it is becoming true in France) especially among the younger ones spend more times in front of their computers, Wii, TV... than they do outside.
In France for every young person in primary school there is the opportunity to do sport every Wednesday afternoon with pretty good prices, very low ones. My brother used to play tennis, soccer and do Judo and I would do some karate, dance and mostly roller. This was pretty unexpensive. These still exist but the number of pupils part of these programs has decreased drastically. And in secondary school and high school you can be part of the sport association for an extra 10euros a year (13US$) which allows you to be part of any school teams whether they do take part in competition or not. But again the numbers of participants has decreased.
- After determining the reason of the condition deal with the reimbursement differently.
I know that as far as I am concerned, when I was followed by a doctor through a one-year diet (lost 30lbs) I paid every penny of it (and my parents obviously). It made me realise that I was not overweight because of a special medical condition but rather because I was eating too much. I was not huge being 72kg for 1m70 but when I got to 58kg I could feel the difference in the way I was moving, breathing etc... Now 58kg was not enough for me, I felt weak and my ideal weight is 62kg, enough muscles, enough energy and feeling great but thinking of it, I would have felt it unfair for others to pay for me being not careful of myself.
Now, today is different. I have gained weight because of a thyroid problem which is not funny. I am to take medication for that until the end of my life. If I forget to take it for one day, I am so tired I cannot even get out. My life is a little unbalanced still since I don't have a job, but I am eating reasonably usually soup in the evening and I get out for a walk every day even when the weather's cold. That's thanks to my bf who can't stand staying inside all day so we get out... But it is still a struggle to lose those extra 8kg .

Again don't be mad at me but I had the experience this past April when we came back from Australia through the USA. During my flight from San Fransisco to Chicago - a 5 hour flight if I recall (or 4) - I was seated next to a guy who needed one and a half seat. And since he got to the seat before I did he removed the arm between us and fell asleep, meaning I had half a seat for myself.
I understand that it is not fair to ask them to pay for two seats but in the end I paid for a seat and I got half one. I could not sleep during the flight and that was quite uncomfortable. When he woke up he called for the attendant and had some peanut (to which I am allergic so I guess I am a little resentful there ) and some soda. I don't want to generalise because it is most often 5% of the population that makes the other 95% look bad but at the end of the flight I was ranting about that obese guy and how it was unfair that I had to go through this ordeal...
But when you think of it, it was not so much about the fact that the guy had taken half of my seat but the fact that he had done it without asking, had eaten peanuts without even bothering that the person next to him might be allergic... So not the fact that he was overweight but rather that he was rude...

This is a fascinating topic and I will come back to it when I have a bit more time - right now I'm about to make dinner. LOL

Says the skinny European woman....




Lali

European, yes. Skinny, hah.

I am often amazed at the lack of culinary culture in the UK. Yes, there are foodies and gourmets and hideously expensive restaurants, but I mean mainstream culinary culture - people cooking their food as a matter of custom, something learned from parents and passed on to children just like any other household skills. The amount of ready meals in supermarkets is astonishing (and I do make use of them from time to time, because I'm lazy), as is the number of takeaway places. In the last 10 years I've also noticed that the number of obese people in the UK has increased spectacularly, particularly women. But I've also noticed that the number of worryingly thin girls has increased, probably just as much. I think the English (and perhaps the Anglo-Saxon in general, hence the US) have a dysfunctional relationship with food, and I've often wondered if this comes from a Puritan reaction. Certainly, traditionally Catholic countries such as Spain, Italy and France revel in eating and almost worship food - Jude's mention of "eating rituals" is spot-on. Eating and food to us Mediterraneans is more than fuel, it's part of culture and lifestyle, but it's available to everyone and not only to the middle-classes with disposable income. Of course, I see that as normal and healthy... but it's a fact that in Spain, Italy and France there are far fewer obese people, and less obsession with dieting. I have never in my whole life dieted or counted a calorie, I eat what I want and as much as I want, and am generally healthy and fit. True, I could do with losing a few kilos (I'm 1.63m and weigh 65kg, although ideally I'd like to be nearer to 60) but as long as I can wear the clothes I like and feel fit, I'm not going to worry much. I'd rather exercise than diet any day anyway. I don't like healthy food.

*munches on crackers with Boursin*

I do have breakfast, a couple of slices of toast with butter (no nasty artificial spreads for me), sometimes jam or marmalade or honey, and a mug of tea with milk. Mid-morning I usually have a snack - often a croissant or other pastry, sometimes a handful of nuts or a fruit smoothie. Lunch, when I can, consists of either a bowl of noodles, a sandwich (in brown bread - my one token attempt at healthy eating ) or a jacket potato. My sandwiches have no salad, I can't stand the stuff, so they're usually fish, meat or cheese. When I get home I'll have a couple of crackers, or a piece of toast, or a biscuit, to quell hunger while I make Alex's dinner. And then dinner, my main meal of the day, usually consisting of fish or meat, sometimes pasta or soup, but always a smallish portion, with a yogurt or similar for dessert. And then, late at night, I usually have a cup of decaf tea with a biscuit. I haven't really put on weight since I was 25, can still wear clothes that I wore in my early 20s, and although I could do with a bit more energy and general fitness, a big change to my my eating habits is not an option. If it ain't broke, why fix it...

Wot no pancakes?

I spent some glorious times in England. Other than a Chinese food restaurant in London, none fo those glorious times had anything to do with food.

I know a whole bunch of excellent foodie places in Edinburgh, if anyone's interested.

I also know a couple in London...

Ah, see that breaks my heart. I think its no exaggeration to say I can eat close to half what I did in my 20's and still put on weight. Part of it is my lifestyle, but mostly its my metabolism. Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting for a second that I eat healthily and my body is cheating on me! I know how to lose weight, and I'm doing it. What frustrates me is that in my teens and early 20's I was able to eat twice what I do now and not put on weight. Its given me unrealistic expectations.

Still, down a stone and still moving in the right direction!

ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:

Wot no pancakes?

On Sundays.

I do understand that it is unfair to lump every "overweight" person in the same category, because there are so many different factors involved in one's weight and health that it's impossible to compare everyone. But in the US at least, I think the majority of people who are clinically overweight or obese are so because of their lifestyle. Of course there are exceptions, as plenty of medical conditions and medications can affect weight. But a lot of obesity is just caused by people eating whatever they want and leading a sedentary lifestyle. There's nothing wrong with being overweight if you are a healthy person. I'm about 15 pounds over my "ideal" weight (right now I'm just below 150) but I walk for at least an hour every day, run 22 miles a week, and lift weights about two times per week. I'm a vegetarian, I rarely eat fast food, and I don't skip meals. Medically, I'm in excellent health. I could still stand to lose that excess weight, but my body is not suffering because of it. So I too get frustrated with the fact that being overweight is automatically associated with being unhealthy. But I also get frustrated with people who are overweight because of their own lifestyle choices and then suffer medical problems because of their weight (not vice versa) and place unnecessary burdens on the health care system. It's frustrating because I know that my own insurance and health care costs are increasing in part due to people who don't take care of themselves, and it's especially frustrating because I try hard to take good care of my body. And yet I pay the same amount for health insurance as someone who is twice their healthy weight, and not because of any underlying medical problems.

So in that sense, yes, I definitely understand why so many people are pushing for regulation of unhealthy foods. There are a lot of people in the US who refuse to take good care of their health and then rely on an already overburdened health care system when they develop complications from their own bad habits. I think it is beneficial to encourage people in society to take care of themselves as best they can. However, I think that there are current government regulations that are actually increasing obesity, if indirectly. Take corn subsidies, for example. Despite all those stupid commercials that the corn-growing lobby pays for, most of the sweetening products made from corn are NOT good for you. But products will continue to have high fructose corn syrup in them because the government heavily subsidizes the corn and soybean industries, but does not subsidies "specialty crops" such as healthy fruits and vegetables. The reason that so many pre-packaged foods have such a high percentage of corn products in them is that it's so much more profitable for commercial farmers to grow corn than it is for them to grow, say, apples or carrots. I probably shouldn't turn this thread into a discussion of agricultural subsidies, but in this case I really think that the corn subsidies are indirectly causing or increasing some of these weight-related health problems here in the States.

Berhael wrote:

I think the English (and perhaps the Anglo-Saxon in general, hence the US) have a dysfunctional relationship with food, and I've often wondered if this comes from a Puritan reaction. Certainly, traditionally Catholic countries such as Spain, Italy and France revel in eating and almost worship food - Jude's mention of "eating rituals" is spot-on. Eating and food to us Mediterraneans is more than fuel, it's part of culture and lifestyle, but it's available to everyone and not only to the middle-classes with disposable income. Of course, I see that as normal and healthy... but it's a fact that in Spain, Italy and France there are far fewer obese people, and less obsession with dieting.

I think you are absolutely right in these observations, Ber.

I'd have made a lousy Puritan. I like Christmas, I like maypoles and morris dancers and I like food and wine.

A colleague said to me the other day that winter was the season when one really wants to stuff oneself with carbohydrates. I said that I felt like that all the year round.

I've put on a lot of weight since I entered my 40s -- well, duh -- and while I am not particularly plump, I am overweight for my size. I've made some changes to my diet, like drinking skimmed milk rather than semi-skimmed (half-cream), and I do try not to snack on bad things like crisps (chips to the Americans) in between meals. I don't always succeed. I also eat lots of fish, and buy organically produced meat and poultry if possible.

Oh, and cheese. I just adore cheese but it is SO fattening! So I try to eat cheese in moderation, and try too to buy the more low-fat kinds of cheese.


Somerfield have started doing organic chicken it's so nice to eat a tasty chicken that you KNOW had a decent life in a field in Devon somewhere. You can really taste the difference in quality when the chicken was a happy chicken and not a chicken on a battery farm.

Feredir wrote:

Alatar wrote:

Note to Southerners. Fried Chicken and gravy in not a breakfast food!

Alatar, those are fighting words! If I had more southern roots I'd be taking you to the bike racks right now .

Anyway, I've often wondered if this was fact or fiction.


freddy

Fiction.

Steak and eggs, biscuits and gravy, and a side of grits makes a good breakfast. Fried Chicken is unusual for a breakfast food. It can happen, but it's uncommon.

Di (or would you rather me address you as Pearl even though your screenname here isn't that?), is the Somerfield organic chicken priced well? I see organic chicken at Sainsbury's and Tesco's but it's usually a wee bit too expensive.

Erunáme wrote:

Di (or would you rather me address you as Pearl even though your screenname here isn't that?),

Oh, I don't mind, Eru, honestly. Di is what people know me here as, so it's no problem.

Quote:

is the Somerfield organic chicken priced well? I see organic chicken at Sainsbury's and Tesco's but it's usually a wee bit too expensive.

Oh, yes, Sainsbury and Tesco are more pricey than Somerfield -- they are also better quality, esp. Sainsbury. However, Somerfield is fine for when I'm just cooking for myself. If I were cooking for other people, I'd go more upmarket.

I think I paid something like £2.97 in a special offer for two skinless chicken breasts at Somerfield, this was corn-fed chicken with the RSPCA Freedom Food approval rating. They did taste nice ...

Rather sobering article on the truth behind some 'organic' food produced in Britain
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 400794.ece" target="_blank

Geez - it's like the word "organic" has completely lost its meaning.

You guys should raise a big stink over this!

OK i am just reading this thread on my Christmas break. I have just skimmed it so far, but from what I understand, it's easier to get around in European cities , they don't depend on processed food as much and also the food they eat has higher quality ingredients, then food in North America does (particularly in France). I think the biggest problem in North America is the quality of food available and I swear food companies are in cahoots with drug companies. (ex: meal plans in colleges and Universities are full of processed food, which is the road to obesity and diabeties *coughbittercough*). Also North America really focuses on bread and meat, rather then fruits and veggies.

O already wanted to say that back when I read Ber's message: I think I get the best of two worlds: French food culture in a protestant heritage.... great food, no excess.

However, I also realised one thing the other day when looking at Guru's and Vana's wedding pics and then today again when reading an article about a cooking book. The wedding looked beautiful, the dresses and musicians really nice - and the athmosphere so relaxed and yet solemm. But, when I saw pictures of the meal, I had a hard time believing it: they were eating hamburgers. This is something I don't see happen at a European wedding. It's a special day, you'll eat special food. You don't eat alike every day. There is more variety. Today I read an article about a book about forbidden food - some because it's illegal nowadays (absinthe...), some because it's immoral to eat it (horse, the author is America, horse is okay here), some because it's weird food (beef testicals). He travelled the world to taste all this - most of it would haven been impossible to import in the States for so called hygienic reasons. And in the end he comes to the conclusion: this would be forbidden food in the US - but you can get beef with hormons and GMO as corn.

Ber, I envy you, I cannot eat any more like in my twenties. But now around christmas, it's time for biscuits. I make them, I eat them, I like them. Besides that, now, that I am an elderly woman, I pay attention. I don't count calories, did not even do so one day to loose my ten kilos, but I am careful on food. I don't want those ten kilos back!!!!!

wiki wrote:

A system of tariffs and sugar quotas imposed in 1977 significantly increased the cost of importing sugar, and producers sought a cheaper alternative. High-fructose corn syrup, derived from corn, is more economical because the American and Canadian prices of sugar are twice the global price[16] and the price of #2 corn is artificially low due to both government subsidies and dumping on the market as farmers produce more corn annually.[17][18] HFCS became an attractive substitute, and is preferred over cane sugar among the vast majority of American food and beverage manufacturers. For instance, soft drink makers like Coca-Cola and Pepsi use sugar in other nations, but switched to HFCS in the U.S. in 1984.

A possible factor? There apparently (per wiki) aren't any clear studies showing high-fructose corn syrup is more likely to cause obesity than regular sugar........but I don't trust that stuff.

(ps - subsidies suck! )