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Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 5:59 am
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halplm wrote:
No, we can't KNOW for certain in a hypothetical situation, but we can have a high degree of certainty. The chances of this happening are so slim, that even if there was a union in place, and even if this was a high priority for them, the cost to wal mart would be HUGE to make all of their front doors mob-proof.

Walmart can't afford better doors?

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 9:24 am
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"better doors" is not exactly what we're talking about here. We're talking about doors that satisfy a whole lot of arbitrary requirements for a situation that has a near 0 chance of every happening again. The cost adds up quickly, and businesses have to make choices where they spend their money.

Vison, there are precious few retail stores that don't do something to try and grab a piece of black friday.

it is conjecture, TED, even moreso because Wal mart will not allow a union to form. But it is not a difficult scenario to play out.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 12:47 pm
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I do not know how anyone can propose to speak for Wal Mart and what they would do if a national union formed. Here in Detroit, Henry Ford was famous for saying very loudly that he would NEVER have a labor union in his plants. He often said he would sell the company before he would allow that to ever happen. Then the Wagner Act happened and the NLRB was created and Ford joined other industries in having the UAW represent them and there was nothing Ford did about it except go along and continue to make money. All his bragging and bravado, all his threats and public posturing, all his vitriol and venom - all of it came to nothing as he stood aside and the legal rights of the workers triumphed over his own narrow mindedness.

Ford - just like Wal Mart - were subject to the law of the land not superior to it.

Talk is cheap. Wal Mart can join the Henry Fords in the dustbins of history fighting unions. That is fine and all the words in the world cannot take away the workers rights under the law. If the reactionary provisions of the Taft Hartley Act are finally repealed and a simple majority of workers are allowed to form a union, Wal Mart and lots of other companies will have to face reality.

Or they can do as Ford promised to do - but failed to do - sell the company rather than see a union in place. Few people actually do take the razor and cut off their nose to spite their face.

Then workers will have a true advocate for thier safety in the workplace. If a union representative had been on premises that Black Friday in Long Island, they could have looked out for the safety of the workers and made strong pleas to management about the situation. That poor man might be alive with his family now instead of us writing abotu it here.

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 3:27 pm
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From a 1996 CNN news report:
Quote:
In Frederickton, New Brunswick, some 300 Elmo-seeking people lined up outside a Wal-mart store five hours before it opened, then stampeded when the doors were unlocked, trampling an employee so badly he was sent to the hospital.
Lest we Canadians get too self-righteous and say it couldn't happen here (although at least we can spell Fredericton!).

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 3:31 pm
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Jude - which also proves this was not a one time incident.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 3:46 pm
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Hal,

I would think that it might be prudent for them to put in better doors, and I don't think it would be that cost prohibitive either. I take for example that a security guard who makes $25k a year could be replaced by a different set of doors. If the doors cost $250k each to install per store, it would be cost efficient to do so. That said it would probably lead to long lines getting in and out of the stores, but I don't think that would be a problem as at our local Sam's Club we all enter one shopper at a time anyway.

I was thinking about all of this the other day and this WalMart must of not been the 24 hour store. Both the stores here are open 24 hours a day, thus I don't think we would have that problem, simply because they never close the doors. I have wondered if this is one of the many reasons that some stores are open 24 hours.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 3:48 pm
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Given that this is a freak incident, is it really possible to entirely plan for the unexpected? Is it possible for even a union to plan for the unexpected freak incident?

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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 4:11 pm
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Jude, forget about self-righteousness, I almost did a fist pump at the mention of Fredericton. :halo:

And fuck CNN right in the ear. Can't spell Fredericton correctly, then also referred to Halifax as a "small Canadian fishing village" after it was knocked around by Hurricane Juan.




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Jude
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 4:18 pm
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"A small Canadian fishing village"? :Q

:LMAO:

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 4:40 pm
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Wal Mart has had problems on other Black Fridays. When you look out into the parking lot at 3 AM and see 2,000 people waiting to get in to a store that can realistically only hold a minority of them... and you know the goodies you advertised to seduce them to come there are in short number ... and you know you are in no way prepared for the onslaught ... the prudent thing to do is to ask the police to clear the area and announce that the store cannot open.

But profit won out over caution. The store did open. A lowly paid parttime employee (is that an oxymoron in describing most Wal Mart employees?) was killed when there was not proper security to regulate entry into the store.

This was not a lighning strike from the heavens. This was a situation caused in part by Wal Mart.

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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 4:53 pm
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Jude, srsly. What is this, Newfoundland?! No, I kid.

I forget if this has been mentioned but I read that the employee who was killed WAS the security. He usually worked maintenance but they asked him to handle the crowd best as he could in anticipation of their lunacy. So... in the future, to protect their own asses and the asses of their customers, perhaps they should step up security of the professionally-trained variety, and not take their cues from Altamont. Or hey, rent some riot gear for the day, see how it affects your death toll/profit!

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vison
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 4:54 pm
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You should hear what CNN says about Vancouver!!

Dorks.

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 5:00 pm
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What do they say about Vancouver?

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 6:52 pm
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It's been said already, but blame need not be an either-or decision. If a police department is incompetent and the city is overrun with crime, the police deserve some share of the guilt. There is really too little information available for me to pass judgment on anyone in the crowd. It could be that someone in it is guilty of first degree murder. It could also be that things simply got out of control and no one in the crowd is guilty of anything worse than being a Consumerist idiot (and all the jails in the world wouldn't suffice if we made that a crime). It's also not a crime for a retailer to try to stir up excitement by offering sensational deals. The only two things I see that might qualify as criminal or at least negligent are 1) asking/making an ordinary employee play security guard and 2) failing to provide or even attempt adequate crowd control even after the crowd became manifestly out of control.


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 7:20 pm
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Yes, blame can be a "both".

I don't know what it is, but certain companies attract public scorn above and beyond the rest without apparent reason. WalMart and MicroSoft seem to be examples of such. It's popular to hate MicroSoft, you can feel cool about it, etc. The same with WalMart.

This story really is about a freak tragic occurance, but the real tragedy is that people are trying to use it to advance a political agenda.

Yes, WalMart could have added more security, but the fact that this happened at only one store after all the stores offered deals of this kind would indicate that this could not have been as easily anticipated as some claim. After all, the measures WalMart took prevented this from happening at every other store.

WalMart gets some blame, but surely some blame belongs with those who did the trampling.

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 7:30 pm
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I have some sympathy for that position, but I think the argument can be made that the this specific store had evidence that this specific crowd was particularly unruly, and should have taken additional steps to get it under control.

This article reveals that the Nassau County police department met with the mangers of Wal-Mart and other stores ahead of time to warn that crowds were likely to be large and telling them to make sure they had enough security. Yet, based on information earlier in this thread, the store had only a single security guard, and he was just a janitor temp they stuck a hat on. And he died. It sounds like there is a pretty good case for negligence.


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 9:34 pm
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from DaveLF
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The only two things I see that might qualify as criminal or at least negligent are 1) asking/making an ordinary employee play security guard and 2) failing to provide or even attempt adequate crowd control even after the crowd became manifestly out of control.
And both of those things are not insignificant. Both of those things contributed to this death.

I found this part of your linked article most illuminating
Quote:
Mulvey revealed that his department had proactively met with Wal-Mart and with other stores holding Black Friday events, warning of large crowds.
He said police officials instructed Wal-Mart they "had to provide for adequate security," but left it up to the company to determine the amount of security necessary.
"Only they would be able to anticipate how large the crowd would get," he said.
He said it was not the police department's responsibility to provide security.
"This is really not a police responsibility," he said.
The day after Thanksgiving is known as Black Friday because it has traditionally marked the point when a throng of shoppers pushes stores into profitability for the year.
The victim, 34-year-old Jdimytai Damour, came from a temporary agency and was doing maintenance work at the store, Wal-Mart said
It does not matter what did not happen at other stores. The thing that does matter is what happened at this one. And what happened was terrible and could have been prevented by the store management. But they opted for profit over safety of everyone concerned.

So they will pay the price. And that is as it should be. Critics of Wal Mart did not invent this story. They did not create this death out of thin air. This happened at Wal Mart. This happened because of many poor management decisions and an attempt to keep costs down and profits up.

They will pay. I daresay they already are.

Wal Mart - yes, its a job - no, its not worth dying for.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 11:26 pm
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If the police met with Wal-Mart ahead of time, and inadequate security measures were taken (which may be the case), then this isn't just a freak accident, but a preventable accident--legally speaking.

It's nice to try to act like this thread is about hatred for Wal-Mart, but that is not the case. Is there anyone else trying to advance a political agenda aside from people posting in this thread, CG? Unless I am one of the people accused of advancing a political agenda, but then it is my right to advance such an agenda in discussion since my words have no power over the lawmakers.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 11:46 pm
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I didn't say that people didn't have the right. I simply said it was tragic that they did so.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Walmart worker trampled to death on Black Friday
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 11:49 pm
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Oh well.

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