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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 5:48 am 
Just keep singin'!
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I can't believe I'm saying this, but...

I agree with C_G.


Bush's biggest flaw (and there are MANY, IMHO) is his self-insulation. He surrounded himself with "yes-men" and was known for getting rid of anyone who disagreed with him or gave him bad news. He existed in a fantasy-land of his own creation and only recently has he shown ANY signs of understanding anything is wrong outside that bubble.

And although I wouldn't throw a shoe at him (or do any other act of physical violence, you can be that if had the opportunity, I would give him a piece of my mind. I completely understand why the guy threw a shoe at him.


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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 1:20 pm 
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Lali, I never said you aren't allowed. I never insinuated either, hence why I started my post with "I THINK".

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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 2:54 pm 
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
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Well, telling me that I'm confusing things points to an assumption that because I think differently than you I'm wrong or "confused." I was pointing out that I am not confused, just have a different viewpoint. Honestly, it rubbed me the wrong way to be told that I was confusing things.

But it's all good. Bush isn't worth this much trouble on my part, and this really hasn't been any trouble. So there you go. ;)

I was more interested in talking about the shoe than in trying to defend Bush, whom I don't really care to try to defend. (I would've defended him at the beginning of his presidency but not now.) Anyway, it's not about Bush to me. It's about respecting the leader of a nation and, more importantly, respecting another person.


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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 3:34 pm 
Milk and kisses
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Wow, stop press, I agree with C_G also. :Q ;)

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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 3:44 pm 
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LalaithUrwen wrote:
Anyway, it's not about Bush to me. It's about respecting the leader of a nation and, more importantly, respecting another person. Lali


Lali ... does Robert Mugabe deserve respect? :suspicious:

Where do we draw the line with this respect business? I'm with Alatar: the office of President means absolutely nothing unless the person acting as President actually is acting like a President. (I certainly don't mean by that that I only endorse Presidents whose policies I like. ;) ) Somebody like Robert Mugabe makes a hollow MOCKERY out of the whole business, and does not deserve any shred of respect. Not one. His people should rise up and do to him what the Romanians did to their dictactor -- Nicolas Ceaucescu -- back in 1989.

I am not defending the action of throwing a shoe or an insult at a national leader, whether it be a tyrant like Mugabe or a person like Bush (whose policies I vehemently disagree with but who to me is not in the same bracket as Mugabe). Besides, Mugabe deserves a hell of a lot more than a mere shoe thrown at him. He deserves his whole nation to rise up against him. Unfortunately, they are so weakened and demoralised they are unable to. :(

If I were in the presence of Mugabe, I would behave myself in a dignified fashion ...

... but I would also refuse to shake that tyrant's hand.

More likely I would be outside with a protest banner.

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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 3:53 pm 
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
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There's nothing in your post I disagree with, Di. :shrug:


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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 4:01 pm 
Frodo's girl through and through
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Oh, right. :D

:Wooper:

:horse:

:hug:

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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 4:45 pm 
Islanded in a Stream of Stars
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There sure is a lot of "x deserves x" or "x deserves a lot worse" going on in this thread and it all reminds me of this:

“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.”

Not saying anyone is calling for anyone's death...but the whole 'who knows what someone really deserves theme' is what I was thinking of.

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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 4:52 pm 
Milk and kisses
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[BSG geek]

You sound like Lee defending Baltar, Eru. ;)

[/BSG geek]

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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 4:54 pm 
Frodo's girl through and through
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Erunáme wrote:
“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.”


Probably the wisest words in LotR.

:hug:

P.S. I'd still support a coup against Mugabe. I would not actively campaign for his death though.

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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 6:05 pm 
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I cordially disagree with Gandalf on that one. Since we can't mete justice out perfectly, we shouldn't try at all?


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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 6:47 pm 
Waiting for winter
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[A Christmas Story Geek]

to all the people throwing shoes at people:

You'll put their eye out!

[/A Christmas Story Geek]

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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 7:25 pm 
Islanded in a Stream of Stars
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Berhael wrote:
[BSG geek]

You sound like Lee defending Baltar, Eru. ;)

[/BSG geek]



Quite right. I totally agreed with Lee. Baltar frakked up but wasn't guilty of what they were trying to pin on him.

[/BSG geek]

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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 8:24 pm 
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Speaking of BSG....it starts up again soon right :banana:


Back to the regularly scheduled topic.

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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec , 2008 11:26 pm 
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Quote:
Anyway, it's not about Bush to me. It's about respecting the leader of a nation and, more importantly, respecting another person.


This statement is the heart of this discussion. Why does 1) the leader of a nation deserve respect, and 2) why do other people deserve respect? I understand respecting a person for admirable actions, or words, but doling out respect simply because you occupy an office, or because you are human takes all meaning away from respect. Someone had to have said this once: respect is earned, not given. I have no respect for Bush, or the office of the president. I haven't respected that office since 2000. I don't give out respect simply to be nice.

I also disagree with Gandalf's quote. It may sound nice on a bumper sticker, or in a trailer for a movie, but as a motto to live by it does not work. The rest of my reasoning was said so eloquently by davelf, so I will just say: I agree with him.

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PostPosted: Fri 19 Dec , 2008 10:13 am 
Frodo's girl through and through
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
I also disagree with Gandalf's quote. It may sound nice on a bumper sticker, or in a trailer for a movie, but as a motto to live by it does not work. The rest of my reasoning was said so eloquently by davelf, so I will just say: I agree with him.


Actually, I think it's an excellent motto to live by. :) It's a quote that inspires me in my (reluctant) opposition to the death penalty. I am being perfectly serious.

(I am not a pacifist though. I oppose the DP but I support a nation-state defending itself against an aggressor.)

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PostPosted: Fri 19 Dec , 2008 11:41 am 
Filthy darwinian hobbit
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As a mark of respect how does it compare with Bush's dad barfing into the lap of the Japanese Prime Minister? :devil:

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PostPosted: Fri 19 Dec , 2008 1:36 pm 
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:Q You're joking, right?

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PostPosted: Fri 19 Dec , 2008 1:49 pm 
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Uh oh:

Look at the picture

They must have cropped out the guy carrying a giant gourd.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Dec , 2008 3:53 am 
Filthy darwinian hobbit
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XnOnDatqENo

I googled bush + japanese +vomit. Plenty of entries.

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