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Should Laws be enforced?

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Post subject: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Tue 06 Jan , 2009 10:55 pm
of Vinyamar
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I know this sounds like a stupid question, but I have a reason for asking.

Sky News reported recently that the UK are looking into the option of installing GPS limiters in cars. How this would work is that based on your geographic location, the relevant speed limited would be applied to your engine, forcing the car down to the maximum allowed speed.

Now there has been a lot of negative reaction, shouts of "Nanny State" and the like, and there are some genuine concerns, such as "What happens if you're in the middle of overtaking?". Thats a fair question and one that needs answering, but the real crux of the matter is that people feel they have a God given right to ignore speed limits, when they feel justified.

Again, there's good reason for concern here. Some speed limits are far higher than they should be, and others are lower than they should be. But thats another problem. The real issue here is that people feel they should be allowed to take their chances. You know. Calculate the odds, and speed when they feel its worth the risk, and take their fines or penalty points if they get caught. Which of course isn't legal.

The law states what the speed limit should be in any given area. Whats wrong with enforcing that?

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 12:32 am
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What is the difference between a speed limit of 65 and 55 mph (sorry, I can't convert to kmph)? Not to say that speed limits are arbitrary, but you can kill a person at 30 mph just the same as at 50 mph.

There is nothing wrong with enforcing the laws, but creating a state where people are enforced is deplorable if you claim to live in a democracy. I know that some people jump from speed limiter gps, to cameras in your home to ensure good citizens, but at what point do the people give the government power, and how can that be upheld if these seemingly minor steps are taken in the name "what is good for you". Kids don't like adults telling them what is good for them, and citizens shouldn't simply like it when the government does it. Government knows best?

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 1:43 am
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My first reaction? A device does nothing but, when you start breaking a law, stops you from breaking a law? Annoying, perhaps, (this ain't murder and rape we're talking about) but on principle (putting aside what practical problems there might be), I can't see how you can argue against stopping a crime when it happens.


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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 2:05 am
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Just another case of people trying to tell other people what to do.

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 2:18 am
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Do you oppose speed limits, Holby?


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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 2:22 am
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No just certain methods of enforcement. Let people be people.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 2:25 am
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I do. Completely.

Here is a practical argument against this particular method of enforcement. I have driven box trucks before. Most rented box trucks have governors on their engines. You can't, except for neutral dropping on hills, accelerate over 70 mph. This is fine when the engine works, but when the engine is slow, or the governor is causing problems, it is dangerous when trying to merge onto a highway because of the size, weight, and limitations of the truck, getting up to the speed everyone else is driving takes time. Let's say we install these gps limiters in our engines. If the limiter malfunctions when you are traveling 65 and thinks you should be at 45, you may be in a world of hurt when, or if your car suddenly drops its speed. Enforce the laws with radar, and police, but leave these impractical, and risky measures for the movie Minority Report.

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 2:42 am
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It's probably impractical for a lot of reasons. I was more concerned with the principle of the thing. Pretend practical issues like that could be solved - is it really any different to have a human see you're over the speed limit and stop you vs a machine see you're over the speed limit and stop you? Again, how can one argue against something stopping you from breaking the law? The only reason I can think of is that we think of this law as one that's okay to break.

Last edited by yovargas on Wed 07 Jan , 2009 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 2:44 am
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This may sound silly but I like my right to make stupid decisions and have to pay the price for them.
I don't want someone else making that decision for me.

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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 2:44 am
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I have to agree with TED. I don't like the idea at all and see it as intrusive and fraught with potential problems. Why not simply increase law enforcement?

Big government is a scary thing.


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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 2:45 am
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Holbytla wrote:
I don't want someone else making that decision for me.
You may as well say you think cops should leave you alone, no? :scratch:


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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 2:46 am
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No not the same.
A cop isn't going to prevent me from speeding. He is just there in case I do.

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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 2:50 am
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And I should clarify that I agree with TED that these limiters shouldn't be put on cars. I don't agree that speed limits should be abolished. I think they serve a purpose; I just think police officers are the right ones to uphold that law.

(Of course, I have a vested interest in police officers keeping their jobs! ;) )


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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 3:08 am
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I'm not really hearing any reasons. If there's a crime that a machine can detect, why not let it? :scratch: (Again, putting aside the practical issues involved in this case.)


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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 3:13 am
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Freedom.

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 3:19 am
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Freedom to commit crimes???


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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 3:22 am
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Freedom to make choices good or bad. In this case the choice is taken away and that is the objection. It isn't as if this were some form of deterrent. The choice is being made for you based on what other people think.
That concept is far more dangerous than speeding.

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 3:35 am
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Sorry, Holby, I'm not buying it. You're arguing that you have a right to break the law and, unless you're an full-on anarchist, that's, well, lunacy.


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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 3:51 am
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Well, I think humans should make the decisions because of things like mercy, common sense, justifiable reasons, etc. Things are not always black and white. TED has already given an example of circumstances where it might be necessary to speed. How about if you're being chased by some lunatic road rage person? How about if your child is bleeding to death in the backseat of your car?

A police officer is given the responsibility and freedom by the people to make decisions about how to enforce something like speeding. We need to allow for the very real situation of circumstances beyond our control or circumstances that a machine cannot allow for.

I'm not sure I'm explaining myself well, but I'd much rather have a person deciding my fate than a machine without emotion or common sense.


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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Should Laws be enforced?
Posted: Wed 07 Jan , 2009 5:16 am
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Under the current system, you either obey the speed limit or you don't. If you don't, and get caught, you face the penalty for breaking the law. It's up to you: obey or face the consequences. Your choice. That's what holby's saying. No, you don't have a right to break the law, but part of being a human is making these kinds of choices and taking the fall out. Also sometimes breaking the law and risking getting caught might seem better than obeying the law, such as when your wife is about to give birth or you've got a loved one unconscious in the ER and so on.

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