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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Thu 22 Jan , 2009 11:21 pm
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from Halplm
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I don't care that he spent the money, but It is worth pointing out the hypocracy of people that complained when Bush spent less 4 years ago, and now say it is fine and good for Obama to spend more
.

I must have missed your post where you provide actual documentation to support this allegation that people complained four years ago and now say its fine. Could you reprint that actual evidence or link to it please?
Quote:
To put it even more simply, if McCain had won, it would have been much much less of a spectacle, even if he had wanted more.
And you know this because?????????

Rebecca could be right - less enthusiasm for McCain would equal a smaller crowd - although if he had won, nobody can really say for sure. Which is why I find statements like the one above simply incredible.

The Obama crowd was the single largest crowd ever to turn out for an Inauguration event. The demands of protecting the President and the demand of pulic safety both had to be served. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure as they say.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Thu 22 Jan , 2009 11:30 pm
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Hal - I can see from other peoples posts that you responded, but I have no interest in getting into any serious discussions with you as I don't enjoy pointless arguing. Frankly, I prefer to debate with someone like Lurker who, though I won't change the mind of, will at least be polite in debating and there will be some fun in the discussion.


More polite than me, which makes me need to beg forgiveness for my crudeness in the way I disagreed, TBH.

Sorry Lurker - using the word pipedream was very rude of me, and I realize in rereading that some of my language could be misconstrued as being patronizing. Please believe, it was not my intention. Speaking as I did has always caused problems when I debate with people, but I don't engage in debates often enough to make any headway in changing the habit :oops: :blackeye:



Hal - if you want to have some fun discussions or spam sessions like we used to do back in the day, I would more than welcome it, but, I am sorry, I simply will not engage with you in a debate. I still like you and consider you a friend - I'd really like it to stay that way.


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Thu 22 Jan , 2009 11:32 pm
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indeed, which is why I said I am one that doesn't care. But it IS hypocracy to have complained about Bush's costs 4 years ago (don't play dumb, SF, it was all over the liberal press 4 years ago, read the internet), and not complain now that it cost more.

It is also disingenuous to claim the money was "already spent." If Obama wanted to, he could have told the crowds to stay home, and have his inauguration out of the spectacle, and saved 90% of the security costs.

Should he have done that? meh, I don't particularly think so.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Thu 22 Jan , 2009 11:42 pm
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halplm wrote:
indeed, which is why I said I am one that doesn't care. But it IS hypocracy to have complained about Bush's costs 4 years ago (don't play dumb, SF, it was all over the liberal press 4 years ago, read the internet), and not complain now that it cost more.
Then why did you bring it up?
Where has someone complained about Bush's spending on his inguration in this thread? :scratch:

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Eruname
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Thu 22 Jan , 2009 11:47 pm
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Some people should try this:

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=geo ... enses+2004" target="_blank" target="_blank

I love, love, love that site! :D

I found something interesting:
Quote:
During the January 18 edition of MSNBC Live, host Tamron Hall stated that "the inauguration festivities" for President-elect Barack Obama are "estimated to reach as high as $150 million," adding that "n 2004, to note, the inauguration of George W. Bush cost roughly $40 million." However, the $40 million figure that Hall cited for Bush's second inauguration reportedly does not include certain costs incurred by the federal government and the District of Columbia such as security and transportation costs; these costs are included in the $150 million estimate that the media are reporting for the Obama inauguration. When the costs incurred by the federal government and the District of Columbia are factored in, the total cost of Bush's 2005 inauguration was reportedly around $157 million, as Media Matters for America senior fellow Eric Boehlert noted.

The Washington Post reported in January 2005 that the $40 million cost of Bush's inaugural celebration, raised from private donations "does not include the cost of a web of security, including everything from 7,000 troops to volunteer police officers from far away, to some of the most sophisticated detection and protection equipment." Further, The New York Times reported on January 5 that in 2005, "the federal government and the District of Columbia spent a combined $115.5 million, most of it for security, the swearing-in ceremony, cleanup and for a holiday for federal workers."


http://mediamatters.org/items/200901180003" target="_blank" target="_blank

People most certainly did criticise Bush for his expeditures back in 2004. This article from a conservative blogger has links to those criticisms:

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/11/28/wh ... vists-now/" target="_blank" target="_blank

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Wilma
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 12:06 am
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All I am going to say is that more could have been spent because well,lets just say after the inauguration it was an utter nightmare getting out of the national mall, for myself and other trip goers it took 4 hours to leave the area. (I do not mean car traffic) The metro (subway) stops to leave the national mall was actually closed for hours, and any way to escape the place was barricaded off. People were either fainting or getting frost bite. It was cold!!! (It was very difficult to get inside a building to warm up let alone a bathroom.) They really did'nt know how to deal with that many people leaving the area. Much more money could have been on making exiting the area easier. It was a crowd control nightmare. Trust me if they skimped, things could have gone even worse.

Edit to add colour.
Edit 2 to fix spelling
Edit again to add some clarity

Last edited by Wilma on Fri 23 Jan , 2009 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 12:13 am
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That very thing occurred to me, Wilma! :Q

And while it was a lovely sunny winter's day, it looked FREEZING!

I sympathise because London can be one almighty bloody crowd control nightmare. :rage: Although they managed to get their act together for the Queen's Golden Jubilee in 2002. That was a nice day. :)

One British family came over for the inauguration: he's black, she's white, they have two kids. He really wanted his children to experience the historicity of the event, which I appreciate :) but honestly, I thought he was barking mad. ;) I hope he realised just how many people were going to turn up!

I hope you've warmed up now. :hug:

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Rebecca
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 12:16 am
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There were even thousands of people (with tickets) turned away after waiting hours in line in a tunnel: Purple Tunnel of Doom (there's lots more articles about it, too).

I know when I went to work, they were saying it was 20 F in DC. :Q

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Wilma
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 12:22 am
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I heard rumours, that people slept overnight outside to get a good spot!! :Q

Also my friends an I arrived at 5:30am and it was pretty OK, but as the day progressed it seriously got much colder. My friends couldn't take it and left to find a tent. I stayed or my mother's sake or I would have left too, and were Canadians who are supossed to be "used to" the cold. ( That is what many people told me when they figured out where I was from (my accent is very obvious, apparently)). It was ungodly cold.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 1:04 am
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from Halplm
Quote:
indeed, which is why I said I am one that doesn't care. But it IS hypocracy to have complained about Bush's costs 4 years ago (don't play dumb, SF, it was all over the liberal press 4 years ago, read the internet), and not complain now that it cost more.
The only one playing dumb here is you. You make allegations and fail utterly and completly to back them up with any documentation of any kind.

Why do you do this?

Why do you state "facts" like you are Moses coming down from MT. Sinai but ask us to believe that you have the tablets under your robe?

Why do you think anyone will believe you when you continually and constantly do this over and over and over again?

I could not care less about your opinion. Fine - you are entitled to it. But when you state these so called facts like they are in the Encyclopedia or something, anyone here is entitled to ask you to back it up.

Get used to it.

It is not the job of anyone else here to walk behind you with a shovel and clean up your posts. It is your job to support your opinion with documentation when you make such allegations.

Eruname was kind enough to show you how to do it. But nobody here can think for you or do your work for you. That has to be done by you as you post.

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 1:44 am
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Hurray for complaining about things that don't matter! :thewave:


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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 2:03 am
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The fact that people with tickets were not let into the ticketed area (or were put in a tunnel and forgotten about :roll: ) is pretty awful. I think there was a gross overestimation on someone's part of how many people would fit in that area between the Capitol reflecting pool and the seating area. The Secret Service also didn't do a great job of gatekeeping. But, with a crowd of 2 million, it's difficult if not impossible to ensure that things go smoothly. There was no way that number of people on the Mall would NOT cause some problems and some overcrowding. The metro stops on the Mall were closed for safety reasons--notably the Smithsonian stop, which opens up in the center of the Mall itself. That had to be closed. Also, the maximum capacity for ridership on the Metro is something like 900,000. For weeks Metro has been telling people to walk if at all possible rather than ride the subway. There's no possible way they could have increased their rider capacity beyond its maximum amount without causing a massive safety hazard. I have to disagree that the planning committees skimped on anything. Their main concerns were safety and security, and I believe they were successful in both areas. It would have been an impossible task to efficiently move 2 million people from the Mall in a 30-minute window. Long delays were inevitable. And, obviously the committees couldn't help the cold. ;) Nor could they have provided shelter and warmth for 2 million people.

All from my own perspective, of course. :)


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Feredir
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 2:31 am
 
 
Elfshadow,
Are you sure that was the Secret Service doing the "gate keeping?" Of all the events I've been involved in it has been the local PD that does the checking at the gates and the Secret Service will either oversee the gates or not be around at all (keeping guard over the candidate). It might have been different since it was DC and the inauguration. They usually don't have the manpower to handle this kind of thing.


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Wilma
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 2:41 am
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I never expected to get out in 30 minutes. Also I did try to walk and get out of the mall, but everywhere I went I reached a barricade. that was my biggest problem. I was willing to pay for a taxi, but no taxi's could get in. The only thing I have to compare to this Caribana which has about a 1 million and half people and takes place in the summer in Toronto. No one in their right mind would close a subway stop. I would agree with lineups and slowing things down, and adding buses, but closing several stops altogether and in the same area would be considered insane in Toronto. If a stop is ever closed in Toronto, they bring in extra buses to try and keep things going. The don't leave people stranded.

Especially as other means of exit was near impossible (baricades and no running buses) and it being winter, cutting people off from buses, subways, taxis and blocking pedestrian exit was a bad idea. I am pretty sure no cars were alllowed. I am going to be frank I felt very trapped.

I knew the subway wasn't going to be useful but I at least thought I could walk outside of the mall to find a hotel or resturant in the downtown area. I knew where downtown was. Trapping people in the mall outside in winter is not crowd control.
From what some New Yorkers told me it seems that DC is not well known for uh, crowd control efficiency. Thank God no disaster happened or no one would have been able to run away.

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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 2:42 am
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I wasn't near the ticketed area so I'm not entirely certain. It may well have been Metro police who were directing people. But all of the secure areas were overseen by the Secret Service and the National Guard, including the "silver" section of the ticketed area (where there were actual seats), the area near the Capitol, and a large portion of the parade route. I know this because all of the medical volunteers who were assigned to those areas had to have SS credentials to get in. But it definitely could have been Metro at the entrance to the purple ticket section.

ETA: Wilma, the DC city government is definitely not known for efficiency. ;) But most of the barricades, metro closures, and road closures were due to security reasons. If this had been almost any other event, even with the same number of people, there likely wouldn't have been as many crowd control issues. But because it was the Inauguration, things were different. I can guarantee that if the Smithsonian metro stop had been open, it would have been a nightmare.


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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 3:57 am
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Lidless wrote:
Of the USD 150m, USD 45m came from donations. That leaves USD 105m. Most of that goes on law enforcement - which is mostly apportioning an existing cost (an officer on USD 52k who spends a week on the inauguration: voilà USD 1k added to the cost). The only extra cost from that of law enforcement is overtime - but that would not be as large as the headline suggests.

The only real extras would be the construction of the platform and rental of chairs (USD 3m), extra transportation, overtime, and sundry extras such as keeping the Smithsonian open for longer (USD 0.7m). My gut feel is USD 40m.

So there's the problem. People see USD 150m - but it is not the true cost: it's an allocated gross cost, not an extra net cost. It's a headline-grabber and I've wiped my backside on more interesting things.
Ok, let's say that it's an allocated cost, I'll agree with you on that, but any freshman business student knows that a country in the red (because of the war) would not allocate that much money for next year's budget. In fact, I would be cutting costs without sacrificing the event. I could enumerate a lot of things that where just frivolous. Even without the pomp and pageantry people will still come, believe me.

Pres. L. Johnson attracted a crowd of 1.3 million without pomp and pageantry as extravagant as this.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 4:02 am
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SF, things that are obvious, and common knowledge, don't have to be backed up like a PHD thesis, especially on a message board.

Only you seem obsessed with ignoring reality, and sidetracking every post you disagree with, rather than actually putting forth your own opinion and backing it up with a well argued point of view.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 4:11 am
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elfshadow wrote:
Long-term solutions don't erase the need for short-term ones.

And, depending on your economic philosophy (I do NOT want to get into a debate on that), the government doesn't and can't spend money in the same way that the individual citizen does. Certainly according to Obama's economic philosophy, the government can't just start saving money instead of spending because it has debts to pay off. It has a much much larger line of credit than the individual. The debts need to be paid, I agree, but as I said you can't sacrifice short-term suffering for long-term solutions. They both need to be addressed.
What I got from your post was Obama's economic philosophy was and I quote: the government can't just start saving money instead of spending because it has debts to pay off. It has a much much larger line of credit than the individual. So....having a no limit credit line allows you to bailout anybody you want, and you have the right not pay it. Hmmmm....I wonder which country or business entities will be handing out a foreclosure notice on the US now? Inquiring minds wants to know. :D

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 4:43 am
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Estel wrote:
Lurker, changing the plans for the $150 million inauguration 60 days ahead of time would've been the equivelent of changing the plans for a £1 million wedding 8 hours ahead of time.

The money was already spent.

The money was gone.

It doesn't matter what Obama might've wanted to do with the money rather than have a big inauguration - by the time he got elected, it was gone. By that point, it would've cost more money to change the plans to a so called cheaper inauguration, than it would've to keep it the same.
I don't think that the money was already spent before he got elected (from the other post, it was stated that it was a year in advance). You don't just plan an inauguration without learning who the President will be. It's like planning a wedding without a groom. From my point of view, inaugurations are catered to the person who won the election. Plans start when he got elected, that's why I said it could have been scaled down.

Quote:
As for the money being spent elsewhere - that would've required congressional committees deciding in 2007 to take money away from the inauguration with the specific intent of getting that money put towards housing, then that would've had to be approved by the budgetary committee, then approved by congress, and it would've stayed there for quite some time getting addendums and whatnot added to it.....

Frankly, what you're saying Obama should've done is completely and utterly impossible. A pipedream. If the U.S. Governemt wanted to do it before even knowing who was running, let alone elected, they would've had to start the process probably 3 or 4 years ago.
I said that because from the previous post people were saying it was already allocated a year before. All he had to say was I'd rather this money go spent elsewhere even if it takes 4 years to do it.

Quote:
As for all the pomp and circumstance - this is the only thing of that nature that we Americans get, and we only get it every 4 years. So yes, a great many of us do want a big event. A great many of us do want the chance to participate in one way or another. The rest of the world has traditions that go back centuries, if not thousands of years. We have this one thing, and we only get it a few times a decade. It's a sign of change, but it's also a tradition - having both in the same ceremony is a great comfort.
You can have your traditions and your celebrations, there is nothing wrong with that, just as long as you stay in budget. Do not spend money you don't have. :)

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Coverage from around the world......
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 6:38 am
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Well, actually, you can start planning an inauguration without knowing who it's going to be. The decorations will be different but the over all show is the same. And federal money does get allocated quite far in advance, with consequences that have impacted my life in some weird, tangential ways. The national budget is set by acts of Congress, slightly more reliable than acts of God. So when Congress looks like it's going to move, EVERYONE piles EVERYTHING on.

Part of the security issue was apparently they had credible information that a Somali terror cell was planning an attack. So they cordoned off the entire parade route with troops and police three rows deep and presumably had snipers and such in position as well. It might have been cheaper and easier to just call the whole thing off, but that's an even bigger lose - if we're so scared we call off our big, once/four years party, the terrorists win. So DC got a massive cash bolus instead.

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