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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jan , 2009 8:22 pm 
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The government of California is in dire financial stress. As of now all payments stop on February 1st. That includes tax returns and welfare checks. The state will be issuing IOUs.

Thanks to Proposition 13 (thankfully) taxes cannot be raised without a 2/3 vote. The Democrats control almost 2/3 of the legislature but due to the bipartisan gerrymandering they are permanently just short of 2/3. The Democrat solution is tax increases. The Republican solution is spending cuts. Neither will compromise with the other. All but one department of the state have refused to look for ways for them to trim their own budgets.

The state treasury is out of money. There is no money to spend anymore. Coming soon either there will finally be a compromise or the state government will actually shut down.

A few months ago, during the initial bailout frenzy, our governor tried to apply for a bailout without avail.

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jan , 2009 8:45 pm 
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I didn't know you lived in California.

I'm just surprised it took this long. California's been talking financial emergency for something like a year now, and even before that there was lots of whispering.

The US government seems to be capable of operating with no money; maybe you just need to issue your very own fiat currency.


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jan , 2009 8:47 pm 
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They've managed to pull through the last several gaps largely because the economy hadn't turned down yet. Even so, when Arnie assumed office one of the first things he did was a debt consolidation bond.

That would have given the California government the time to pull things together if they hadn't squandered the opportunity.

Dave_LF wrote:
he US government seems to be capable of operating with no money; maybe you just need to issue your very own fiat currency.


Hm, California printing its own money. That's a thought. I think there are laws against it though.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jan , 2009 10:14 pm 
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The only solution is the one McClintock has suggested, basically getting all the unions to accept major concessions, and removing the bulk of waste in the public service unions.

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 4:04 am 
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halplm wrote:
The only solution is the one McClintock has suggested, basically getting all the unions to accept major concessions, and removing the bulk of waste in the public service unions.


Not all of us public servants are bulky or wasteful. I'm working 10 hour days yet I'm paid for less than 40 hrs per week (thanks to concessions my union made several years ago), while trying to make up for the loss of co-workers due to retirement and transfer, who can't be replaced due to the hiring freeze in our department. I just keep getting behinder and behinder. Meanwhile, I'm paid far less per hour than my counterparts in the private workforce. Sticking it to me (even more) is not the answer.

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 11:38 am 
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Are you in California?

If you are, I suggest you are getting ripped off by administrative staff that accomplishes nothing towards the actual task your union is supposed to perform.

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 12:41 pm 
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and yet again, for a time beyond counting, no evidence is presented for these irresponsible claims.... more union bashing from Halplm .... more vitriol being aimed at honest, hard working people.
=========================

Very good post Laureanna - hang in there --- times are a changin' and I am sure the better times will get to you ....

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 3:31 pm 
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Well I do agree that my union dues are a waste of my money. All of the people (except management) in our office are represented by the Operating Engineers. All of the union representatives are back hoe operators. Not that I have anything against heavy machinery workers, but I don't see any one like me representing me.

Thanks SF. And these are better times for me. Money isn't everything, and I'm having a great time on my days off.

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 3:52 pm 
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Laurenna... one problem that you may be encountering is that many states have laws which say that a union must represent the broadest possible number of units within the same bargaining unit. For example, In the Detroit School System, the Detroit Federation of Teachers represents teachers who make up 85% of the membership. But they also represent social workers, speech pathologists, school nurses, psychologists, accompianists, and over twenty other job categories - all of whom are not classroom teachers. This is done by law and the union has no choice. Just like your case, it leads to the smaller groups feeling that they are not really represented as well as they could be.

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 4:03 pm 
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Actually the Union has made things difficult for the state. Arnold sent out feelers for days off or pay cuts, and the union's opposition was that they would rather the state shut down than one penny be taken from union dues - I mean the pay of union memebers.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 4:16 pm 
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Sounds like a good union to me.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 4:18 pm 
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It is very good to ensure that the state goes bankrupt and can't pay the union dues, I mean union paychecks, anything at all?

It does sound like a good Detroit union that would rather not collect a high pay than collect a lower pay.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 4:29 pm 
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There is a process for renegotiating established contracts and it invovles sitting down at the bargaining table and talking as equals.

This vague idea of sending out feelers - whatever that may mean or imply - is not how it is done.

In Detroit, as elected chairperson of the High School Chapter of the DFT, I twice participated in so-called concession negotiations in the middle of an already agreed to contract. The Board simply wanted monetary concessions. When the Union said they were willing to talk about monetary concessions if the Board in turn would put non-monetary issues (such as work rules etc.) on the table, they blew a gasket and blasted us in the media as willing to shut down the system and unwilling to lose a single dollar. That was broadcast on TV, published in the paper, and was fodder for right-wing local radio. This despite the fact that I sat at the very table where the early discussions were held and the union clearly stated they were willing to put monetary concessions on the table IF the Board would place non-monetary issues on the table as well.

I learned firsthand, to not believe any media reports of contract talks, negotiations or these so called vague sent feelers.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 5:09 pm 
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Halplm - you did nog give us the first name or title of this McClintock you referred to. Is this the same person?

Quote:
California Congressional District 4: Mr. Limited Government, Tom McClintock, At the Trough Taking $306,000 of Public Money
By David Dayen
d-day

This is going to leave a mark.

Tom McClintock, California's Alan Keyes, is supposed to be this rock-ribbed conservative who never voted for a budget and who rails against "wasteful spending." I guess it's OK if it's McClintock doing the wasting:

“State Sen. Tom McClintock, a fierce critic of government spending, has accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax-free per diem payments from the state that are meant to help legislators who, unlike McClintock, live far from the capital.

“The Republican lawmaker said he is entitled to the $170-a-day payments because his legal residence is a family home in his Senate district of Thousand Oaks, where he is registered to vote.

“McClintock and his family live year-round in Elk Grove, 14 miles from the state Capitol. He moved to the Sacramento suburb in 1996, when he was elected to the state Assembly, and he bought a five-bedroom, 4,090-square-foot home in 2004. His children attend Elk Grove schools and his wife works at a Baptist church there.

“The intent of the payments is to help defray the living costs of lawmakers attending the eight-month legislative session far from their homes.

“Legal experts say McClintock is taking advantage of a loophole that gives him a right to the tax-free payments even though he lives near the Capitol.

“"This certainly strikes me as an example of the abuse of the per diem system," said Derek Cressman, government watchdog director for California Common Cause.”

Honestly, this is going to KILL McClintock. His entire rationale is as a critic of government spending. For him to show hypocrisy on this issue undermines his entire argument. Nobody is more at risk on something like this than he is. Not to mention the fact that this kind of looks like he's been carpetbagging in his own district all along, when in fact he's a creature of the capital.

We're talking about $306,000 in TAX-FREE per diem money over the last eight years, on top of his $116,000 annual salary. Whaddya know - Tom McClintock is a welfare recipient. Charlie Brown's campaign wasted no time capitalizing on this.
"For 30 years, Tom McClintock has railed against government spending while living well at taxpayer expense," said Todd Stenhouse, a spokesman for Democratic congressional candidate Charlie Brown, a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel.

McClintock's spin, that he's "entitled" to the money to help defray the cost of a second home, isn't going to fly. Tom McClintock arguing for an entitlement?

Meanwhile, Charlie Brown is getting great press in the district, just this week presenting $17,500 in donation money to nonprofit groups servicing veterans. Quite a contrast.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 6:32 pm 
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sauronsfinger wrote:
There is a process for renegotiating established contracts and it invovles sitting down at the bargaining table and talking as equals.

This vague idea of sending out feelers - whatever that may mean or imply - is not how it is done.

In Detroit, as elected chairperson of the High School Chapter of the DFT, I twice participated in so-called concession negotiations in the middle of an already agreed to contract. The Board simply wanted monetary concessions. When the Union said they were willing to talk about monetary concessions if the Board in turn would put non-monetary issues (such as work rules etc.) on the table, they blew a gasket and blasted us in the media as willing to shut down the system and unwilling to lose a single dollar. That was broadcast on TV, published in the paper, and was fodder for right-wing local radio. This despite the fact that I sat at the very table where the early discussions were held and the union clearly stated they were willing to put monetary concessions on the table IF the Board would place non-monetary issues on the table as well.

I learned firsthand, to not believe any media reports of contract talks, negotiations or these so called vague sent feelers.


You obviously know nothing of California or how Unions work.

Around here, the state says we need to renegotiate. The Unions say they aren't giving up a dime ever. The state says "ok, whatever you say, can I get my campaign donation now?"

Oh wait, that's how ALL unions work.

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 6:38 pm 
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And your practical experience working inside the government of the State of California is .....?

And your practical experience working inside a functioning, working public employee union is .....?

Since you failed to answer by question about your person McClintock, I take it that the article I reprinted for you is indeed the same person you referred to in your post above?

You sure do know how to pick your saviors. He seems to have at least one endearing quality in common with your favorite female governor. Probably more.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 6:45 pm 
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I never made any claims to McClintock being a "savior." or any such things. The only reason I mentioned him is because he has a plan that would work, and he's been saying it for many years.

You do not have to work FOR the CA government to see the problems SF. You do not have to work for a union so see how evil they are. All you have to do is look at things objectively, and realize that a huge chunk of money is being sucked out of the taxpayer's dollar to pay people that do nothing but push paper around desks, and make sure their local elections come out the way they want them.

Meanwhile, businesses are leaving CA by the droves, entire industries are moving out of the state. You can't keep raising taxes and expect them to stay, when there's plenty of country and world they can go and not pay them.

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 6:50 pm 
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Thank you for answering my question.

A simple " NO I HAVE NO REAL EXPERIENCE IN EITHER AREA" would have done the job.

but we both knew that going in didn't we?

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 7:06 pm 
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Actually, the Government is supposed to work for ME, given I pay their salaries. It is my civic responsability to ensure that money is spent appropriately, and thus perfectly natural that I would understand where it is WASTED.

You're ad hominem is entirely irrelevant.

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 7:19 pm 
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News Flash for you. The government does not work for you. The government works for all of the people of California. You are just one very tiny grain of sand upon a very large beach. Its not about you. Never has been. Never will be.

You should go back and look up all the hard work that TED did when you got on your high horse about Logical fallacies. Remember how you wanted to use them as a club to silence youe enemies into submission? But then TED listed authoritative sources which indicated that when somebody uses their own self as the source of information without other more authoritative sources, it is perfectly fine and well and good and proper to attack that person as not being credible.

Or did you forget all that?

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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