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PostPosted: Mon 25 May , 2009 4:37 pm 
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Well they did elect an Austrian to run their state. And he is a Republican is he not? of course the GOP will spin this to try to make themselves out the victim, again. They'll blame the gays, the liberals and who ever else they can possibly think of, or perhaps God is mad at California as one certain religion has said.

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PostPosted: Wed 27 May , 2009 3:47 pm 
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sauronsfinger wrote:
Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman has a good opinion piece on the California situation:


Didn't he completely fail to predict the biggest bit of financial news in modern times?

Typical statist. "It's all the fault of Proposition 13. Without Prop 13 California would have the highest taxes in five out of five categories instead of four out of five categories."

Prop 13's not to blame. Spending more money that they have over at Sacramento is to blame.

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PostPosted: Wed 27 May , 2009 4:07 pm 
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Paul Krugman is an economist. You seem to have that profession confused with the reading of tea leaves, entrails and Tarot cards.

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PostPosted: Wed 27 May , 2009 4:26 pm 
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sauronsfinger wrote:
Paul Krugman is an economist. You seem to have that profession confused with the reading of tea leaves, entrails and Tarot cards.


So according to sauronsfinger anyone who can make a determination about the future based on current trends is reading tea leaves, entrails, and Tarot cards. And economists are doubly not supposed to see where economic trends are supposed to go, because after all it is their speciality.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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PostPosted: Wed 27 May , 2009 4:30 pm 
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You add two plus two and get eight.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Sun 31 May , 2009 1:48 am 
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sauronsfinger wrote:
You add two plus two and get eight.


So THAT's how Keynesian economics works. No wonder I never understood it. In Austrian economics, 2 + 2 = 4, in Keynesian economics 2 + 2 = 8. Is that how California's budget is balanced?

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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PostPosted: Sun 31 May , 2009 2:48 am 
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I don't need fish guts to know our economy is in trouble.

I don't need tea leaves to see that Prop 13 has created a two class system in California - the haves and the have nots. There are the older people who own a home that is valued, on the tax records, as $70,000, so it is only taxed on $70,000, who are sitting on a tidy nest egg and will retire in style. They never sold their house because they knew that if they bought a new one, the new house would be assessed at its present value, and they'd never be able to afford the taxes. So the housing market had far less supply than demand, and the few houses available shot up in price. Now that $70,000 house is valued at $400,000. There are a few younger, affluent people who can afford them, but the rest of us are renting, and will probably never be able to afford a house. :(

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PostPosted: Sun 31 May , 2009 3:13 am 
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Laureanna - the idea that California has a law which enables 33.4% of the population to hold sway over the remaining majority is ridiculous. All a super majority provision like that does is enable extremists with power that normally could never be obtained through the normal political process of a majority vote. Of course, if you are a member of that fringe minority, and you wallow in that distinction, you will cling to such power like grim death. And that is just what that law will bring to the State.

Until that key issue is met head on, these sort of debacles will not go away. Maybe that is a element of Austrian economics or at least something treasured by those who profess to be followers of Austrian economics? 34% is greater than 66%? Math only a marginalized extremist can love.

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PostPosted: Sun 31 May , 2009 6:25 pm 
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Yes, Proposition 13 has slowed the transaction of houses since that means taxes go up. But ultimately it has been beneficial to California since it requires 2/3 of the elected politicians agree to raising taxes. Some might argue that it actually leaves tax raising powers in the hands of the minority, giving us a sinister looking facade of a small handful of politiicans with the ability to raise taxes. The most recent tax hike took every Democrat in the Assembly plus three Republicans in the Assembly (and the same for the Senate) and those who have an ideological opposition to any limitation on government power want you to believe it took those three votes to force a tax hike on all the rest of us and that those three are the only ones with any power.

Proposition 13, in spite of its ill effects on people holding on to property, has still been ultimately beneficial to the state of California. Now California only leads the country in three out of four taxes instead of four out of four. Apparently the 2/3 requirement has not prevented taxes from going up, and it hasn't prevented the single largest state tax increase in the history of the United States. It's been the only real check on the power of the politicians in Sacramento and that's why some people hate it so much.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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PostPosted: Sun 31 May , 2009 7:55 pm 
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Maybe some people simply believe in the American principle of majority rule with minority rights.

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PostPosted: Fri 03 Jul , 2009 9:31 pm 
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It seems that the proposition 13 program of majority rule while protecting minority rights only works if the majority agrees that the rights of the minority deserve respect in the first place. The state of California is now issuing IOUs instead.

California sends out IOUs

Los Angeles Times wrote:
Deep in debt and short on cash, California on Thursday churned out its first batch of IOUs in nearly two decades amid grumbles from bankers, growing public outrage and scant progress in negotiations to resolve the state’s widening budget deficit. The state controller’s office fired up a pair of printing presses and began rolling out nearly 29,000 IOUs totaling more than $53 million, most of them destined for residents around the state still awaiting income tax refunds. Recipients also include some businesses, pensioners, health clinics, college students and many others who get checks from the state.


So far California passed the largest state tax increase in the history of the entire USA. Then after the voters rejected extending that tax increase the state is back in debt. When new taxes were proposed one Democrat legislator opined that while he supported the new taxes perhaps the state should live within its means committe chair Noreen Evans said "There is this mantra out there 'living within our means' and while it sound really nice it sounds really simple and it sound really responsible it's meaningless. Our means are completely within our control". Assemblyperson Bass lamented that this time the Republicans won't join in raising taxes because Assemblyman Adams (Republican who voted to raise taxes last time) is being subject to a recall and opined that recalling or threatening to recall anyone who votes for a tax increase is terrorism and that anyone who supports the recall or opposes tax increases is a terrorist. I can only think of one person outside of Assemblywoman Bass who would use "terrorist" to describe anyone who would disagree with a government action, but he uses "potential murderer" instead.

Next we will have to find out if the banks will accept these IOUs. If the interest rate is high enough they might. If they don't then the credit rating for California plummets. And as always, California leads the nation.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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PostPosted: Fri 03 Jul , 2009 9:52 pm 
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from CG

Quote:
It seems that the proposition 13 program of majority rule while protecting minority rights only works if the majority agrees that the rights of the minority deserve respect in the first place.


The only problem with that sentence is that 34% are given a veto over 66%. That is taking the concept of majority rule and trashing it, perverting it and outright ignoring it . That goes light years beyond the concept of the minorty getting respect. Until that key issue is dealt with this is going to be an ongoing train wreck.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul , 2009 2:33 pm 
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In spite of threats to turn this thread into a train wreck unless Proposition 13 receives undeserved blame, the news continues.

Big Banks Don't Want California's IOUs - Wall Street Journal
BANKS REJECT CALIF. IOUS - New York Post
BofA puts 7-day hold on California IOUs - Triangle Business Journal
Banks' plan to refuse California IOUs takes heat - Forbes
Banks Not Buying FDIC Line on California IOUs - the Alpha

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul , 2009 3:28 pm 

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Last Thursday I had to attend a labor board hearing here in southern California on an employee I had terminated.

While waiting for the meeting to start the ‘labor judge’ began bashing Arnold about balancing the budget on the ‘backs of state workers’. She proceeded to tell me about her caseload and how it had gone up over the past 2 years. She then told me she might take early retirement to get away from having to work 2 days/month at no pay.

Then she said that she would have to start using her accumulated sick time of over 1200 hours (because it was a use it or loose it proposition – and she would be damned if she was going to donate it to the state) plus her 745 hours of vacation and comp time.

That is almost 1-year between sick and vacation. Multiply this by the 100’s of thousands of state workers and there you go.

In the private sector I feel I’m an average worker. 3 weeks vacation/year, 10 paid holidays, and 5 paid sick days. That’s 240 hours/year.

It’s the unions in this state; it’s the legislators collapsing to the union money that pours in at election time. You should see the airwaves in CA during an election cycle. Unions for the teachers, nurses, fire fighters, etc., dominate the airwaves.

This Californian says no new taxes, outlaw public service workers joining a union, or outlaw unions political lobbying activities, or limit the dollars allowed for these activities….something, anything to address the root cause.

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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul , 2009 4:19 pm 
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Welcome to B77 Nameless.

Ah yes. If we could only return to the good old days of the Gilded Age where workers knew their place was at the bottom of the food chain scraping up the few crumbs the upper classes decided to drop under the banquet table. If you were smarter and quicker than the other peasants you might even beat the dogs to the better scraps and maybe even feed the kiddies back at the shack. The job of government was to protect the rich and corporations and the local police could always be depended on to crack a few skulls when the rabble got out of line and threatened to pillage the castles of the robber barons. (sigh). We can only hope. :roll:

On the other hand, my calendar indicates it is midway through 2009..... not 1879.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul , 2009 5:53 pm 

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I'm just mad that I missed that gravy train! :doh1:

My point is the massive discrepancy between the average state worker and the average Joe. If private sector companies paid like this they would be non-competitive.....you lose profit, you lose jobs, tax base shrinks...all the basic arguments. :poke:

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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul , 2009 6:36 pm 
Same as it ever was

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(just curious here, but why does TNT show up in orange? :scratch: )

TNT -

Your post does not indicate if the judge's totals were cumulative. I suspect they were. My BIL gets similar treatment as a police officer, if he does not use vacation time or sick time in one year, he is allowed to roll it over. He still "earned" it in every sense of the word. The fact that the private sector basically penalizes its workers by not allowing such perks only hurts the companies themselves, since the employees know full well that it is a "use it or lose it " sort of deal.

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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul , 2009 6:44 pm 
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Some companies allow workers to accumulate leave. S's does. Not that S would ever allow leave to accumulate, but some of his peers do.

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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul , 2009 5:29 pm 
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Ha. I agree with the :roll: at state worker benefits. In private companies, it's use it or lose it, for the most part. Me, I'm an employee in the legal industry without paid sick, holiday or vacation time. I take the time, I don't earn the dime. :(


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul , 2009 9:47 pm 
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One of the priorities for a just and decent society should be to expand good benefits and working conditions to all employees who do not now have them. Going in the opposite direction because "if I don't have it then others should not have it either" may be understandable on some level but only takes us all to the bottom. We should all help each other to the top instead of racing to get to the bottom.

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