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Help me with an Old English translation

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Help me with an Old English translation
Posted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 2:02 pm
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I'm pretty sure a few people here are acquainted with the Englisc (and even if I weren't, it's usually a safe bet that there will be at least a few at any sufficiently large gathering of Tolkien-lovers).

Anyway, I'm sure many of you are familiar with the lines from The Battle of Maldon that are taken as a succinct expression of the old heroic code:

Hige sceal þe heardra || heorte þe cenre mod sceal þe mare || þe ure mægen lytlað

I am thinking of doing something with these lines, but I want to make sure I understand all the words and their nuances properly first. The stock translation goes something like this:

Thought shall be harder, heart the keener, courage the greater, as our might lessens.

However, there is some disagreement, particularly with regard to the words "hige" and "mod". For example, in The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son, Tolkien translates the first line as "will shall be more resolved", "cenre" as "bolder" rather than "keener", and "mod" as "spirit" rather than "courage" (in a footnote about "ofermod" he states that the unmodified "mod" is often translated as "courage" but that "spirit" or "high spirit" is more accurate). In addition, it isn't clear to me whether "sceal" is an imperative or declarative "shall" (heart must be keener vs. heart will be keener). Can anyone help me understand this better? Many thanks in advance.


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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Help me with an Old English translation
Posted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 3:34 pm
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:uhoh: Good luck. Did you ask on HoF, too? I can't help at all.


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Eruname
Post subject: Re: Help me with an Old English translation
Posted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 4:31 pm
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Sounds like you need Breogan. If you post on HoF, you might be able to catch her. I can't guarantee she can help, but she is a Tolkien linguist at least.

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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: Help me with an Old English translation
Posted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 4:49 pm
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I know a poster on TORC who is quite familiar with the Battle of Maldon and who, I am almost positive, knows Old English. I've posted the text there and hopefully he will be able to translate. I'll let you know when I get an update.


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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Help me with an Old English translation
Posted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 4:54 pm
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Which forum and thread on TORC, if you don't mind my asking?

I will probably try HoF too, unless I learn all I need to know before I get around to it.


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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: Help me with an Old English translation
Posted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 5:34 pm
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Here is my post, in a thread in Talk.


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aulini
Post subject: Re: Help me with an Old English translation
Posted: Wed 21 Jan , 2009 10:48 pm
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Can't help you, but must reply anyway as historical/comparative linguistics is a true love of mine!
The word for courage in modern Swedish is 'mod', and the word for bravado is 'övermod'! Generally I think an untrained Scandinavian would stand a better chance of understanding Old English than an untrained English-speaker. In this particular case, not so much.

Edit: One thing you should ask yourself is, do I want it to be an accurate modern translation similar to how a modern person would say the same thing, or do I want it so sound 'oldish' and resemble the original etymologically and gramatically? That's two different things. You wouldn't say 'Heart shall be keener', would you? It is very likely that the modern word that is directly descendant from an original Old English word has changed its meaning quite a bit and is a poor candidate for an accurate modern translation.

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Help me with an Old English translation
Posted: Thu 22 Jan , 2009 1:33 pm
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My goal is to understand what the original words meant, so a literal translation would be more useful than one that attempts to preserve the poetic structure (for example). Though you're right pointing out that idioms don't necessarily translate literally, so I also want to know what the different symbols would have meant to the average Anglo-Saxon back in the day. Presumably having a keen heart did not mean that the organ in your chest had sharp edges.

I'm told that when the Saxons and the Norse met, they found that they could understand each other reasonably well if they spoke slowly and paid attention. The English language has incorporated a lot of French since then, though.


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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Help me with an Old English translation
Posted: Thu 22 Jan , 2009 4:11 pm
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The battle took place just 60 miles or so down the road from me. I can't help much; even now we hardly understand what they say. :D


ETA Maldon nowadays:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/gallery/20 ... =341330879" target="_blank

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Lidless
Post subject: Re: Help me with an Old English translation
Posted: Thu 22 Jan , 2009 7:36 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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The precise translation into modern English is, "Get a life, or write a fantasy book."

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Help me with an Old English translation
Posted: Thu 22 Jan , 2009 10:07 pm
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A life without Anglo-Saxon is no life at all! :horse:


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Estel
Post subject: Re: Help me with an Old English translation
Posted: Thu 22 Jan , 2009 11:42 pm
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:LMAO:


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