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Great Editorial cartoon

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 4:53 pm
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Quote:
Certainly people can use torture (or things many would define as torture) in horribly unproductive ways with no purpose, because they are bad people.
But torture (as some people would define it) is acceptable if it's carried out by good people?

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 4:56 pm
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I don't believe I've said it is acceptable, but I suppose you could infer that from not objecting strongly to it.

A more accurate statement would be that I think it is necessary. And the person doing it can be good, bad, indifferent, the only thing that matters is that it is done for the right reasons... and of course, certain lines aren't crossed (permanent injury would be one).

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:04 pm
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Personally, I could not care less about the internal motivations or emotions that go along with someone attaching battery cables to my testicles and seeing if I enjoy the ride. And I does not matter to me if they are 100% for it or only 50% for it with conflicted moral qualms attached. i simply do not want it to happen for any reason - good or bad.

Torture is torture. It is what it is. It is wrong and I am thankful to finally have a President who understands that and puts his beliefs into action.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:09 pm
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Well, I don't want to see any more planes crashing into US buildings, and if torturing someone is going to stop it, I'm all for it.

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:09 pm
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What are right reasons? Would you consider it justifiable to discover the membership of dangerous groups? Do you think the Founders of the United States were mistaken in forswearing torture? Have circumstances changed in the modern world?

I'm sorry for the series of questions but you seem to espouse an unusual point of view and I wanted to clarify it.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:14 pm
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Lets look at the facts regarding the reliability of torture from an expert on the subject.
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For Immediate Release: December 11, 2007

Former Head of the Defense Intelligence Agency Says Torture Produces Unreliable

STATEMENT BY LIEUTENANT GENERAL HARRY E. SOYSTER, USA (Ret.),

FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY (DIA), 1988-91

"Experienced military and intelligence professionals know that torture, in addition to being illegal and immoral, is an unreliable means of extracting information from prisoners. Much is being made of former CIA official John Kiriakou's statement that waterboarding "broke" a high-value terrorist involved in the 9/11 plot. There are always those who, whether out of fear or inexperience, rush to push the panic button instead of relying on what we know works best and most reliably in these situations. I would caution those who would rely on this example. It is far from clear that the information obtained from this prisoner through illegal means could not have been obtained through lawful methods. The FBI was getting good intelligence from this prisoner before the CIA took over. And there are numerous examples of cases where relying on information obtained through torture has disastrous consequences. The reality is that use of torture produces inconsistent results that are an unreliable basis for action and policy. The overwhelming consensus of intelligence professionals is that torture produces unreliable information. And the overwhelming consensus of senior military leaders is that resort to torture is dishonorable. Use of such primitive methods actually put our own troops and our nation at risk.
Why use a bad techniqe that does not get results?

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:18 pm
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ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:
What are right reasons? Would you consider it justifiable to discover the membership of dangerous groups? Do you think the Founders of the United States were mistaken in forswearing torture? Have circumstances changed in the modern world?

I'm sorry for the series of questions but you seem to espouse an unusual point of view and I wanted to clarify it.
No problem, although I don't think my point of view is that unusual. I know many that share it.

At a preliminary glance, I would say the "right reasons" would be to prevent loss of life. That's a rather nebulous set of standards, though, as knowing the membership of a dangerous group might be vital information to prevent loss of life, or it might just be a note on a report somewhere that isn't needed.

Knowing an attack is emminent, I would say it's justifiable to find out details about that attack such as when or where.

I don't believe the founders of the US foreswore torture in any way. They set rules for due process of citizens, and to prevent cruel and unusual PUNISHMENT, but coerced interrogation is not a punishment, it is an interrogation... and even if people are citizens, in a war on terror, they can be enemy combatants, and that greys the whole area, at least to me...

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:21 pm
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Why would you put your opinion over that of experts who have stated that torture is unreliable and not useful in producing the results they want?

Put the ethics aside... put morality aside ... put the Constitution aside ... put the Founding Fathers aside ...

why use what the experts in that field call a bad technique that does not get you information need?

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:24 pm
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Would it be ok to torture an abortion clinic bomber? To prevent loss of life of course.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:32 pm
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ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:
Would it be ok to torture an abortion clinic bomber? To prevent loss of life of course.
Well, you're presenting a strawman, but we can take it a little further if you like.

There has been no discussion of using torture as a punishment or preventative device, only as an interrogation tecnique. If there was evidence someone was planning to bomb an abortion clinic, then obviously our due process allows for that person to be arrested and charged with a crime, no need for torture.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:34 pm
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SF, why do you think it's valid to cherry-pick only "experts" that agree with you?

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:35 pm
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And it is well established by experts in the field that it is an unreliable technique to achieve what you want it to achieve.

Given that reality, why would anyone then advocate using it?

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:36 pm
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Wolfie posted this link in another thread, but it's still relevant. http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/ ... eabuse.pdf

It is a discussion on harsh interrogation techniques and their effectiveness. The upshot is this. The Executive Branch approved the use of harsh techniques used in the SERE program. SERE exists to teach American troops how to resist tactics used by countries that do not adhere to the Geneva conditions to make prisoners sign false confessions. These techniques are not seen as a reliable way to extract information.

I have no idea what the motivation for torturing information from someone is. Part of it might be stupidity and thuggishness on the part of the captor, or simple frustration. But I've done some reading and listened to some interviews on NPR with professional, military interrogators (some of whom even worked in Gitmo) and they all state that the best way to extract information from a captive is to build their trust and convince them that they have nothing better to do. You negotiate. You deal. You don't torture because then they'll just tell you what you want to hear to make you stop.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:37 pm
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Excellent River - thanks much.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:40 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
And it is well established by experts in the field that it is an unreliable technique to achieve what you want it to achieve.

Given that reality, why would anyone then advocate using it?
See, SF, this is where you go wrong. Claiming that it is "well established by experts in the field" is one of those fallicies we're always talking about. That doesn't make you right.

Here, we're having a nice discussion about the underlying IDEAS behind if it is justifiable or not. This has nothing to do with if it is "reliable" or not, which is what you seem to want to discuss. That may be an interesting topic, but I have no opinion on it, and don't care to develop one actually. Although I will say, something being unreliable, does not make it useless.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:42 pm
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The purpose of torture is to........ get reliable information that is useful.

If the leading experts say it is unreliable and does not further the goals, why is that not an important part of the discussion?

We are talking about something that is based in the real world. This is not a bunch of college sophmores killing two hours between Logic classes drinking too much coffee and discussing ethics.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:49 pm
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The reliability of a technique is part of the justification for using it, hal. If torture is not a reliable means of extracting information, then it doesn't matter what other moral or ethical justifications there are for it (if there are any) - it's not going to get you what you need. You can't save lives with bad information.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 5:54 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
The purpose of torture is to........ get reliable information that is useful.
Actually, we've discussed several purposes of torture... to extract false confessions... to humiliate and dominate someone... to extract information...

Your attempt to narrow it down as only being used to "get reliable information that is useful" is a strawman to make your argument valid. It is not what we are discussiong here, nor is it relevant to this discussion how reliable or useful the information obtained is. The fact information IS obtained, and may be used to help save lives, is what is relevant.
Quote:
If the leading experts say it is unreliable and does not further the goals, why is that not an important part of the discussion?
I enjoy how your quote from one "expert" is not a larger group of "leading experts." Nice inflatiuon there. Which goals are you referring to? The goal of saving lives is what is being discussed here.
Quote:
We are talking about something that is based in the real world. This is not a bunch of college sophmores killing two hours between Logic classes drinking too much coffee and discussing ethics.
This is indeed something based in the real world. You're attempt to characterize my opinion as... well, whatever it is you're trying to characterize it as... is a good example of the tactics we've been discussing elsewhere that do not serve your purpose, and that I am obligated to point out.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 6:01 pm
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halplm wrote:
sauronsfinger wrote:
The purpose of torture is to........ get reliable information that is useful.
Actually, we've discussed several purposes of torture... to extract false confessions... to humiliate and dominate someone... to extract information...
Okay, so which of those uses is acceptable? To my mind, the only "acceptable" purpose for torture is to extract information. A false confession is meaningless outside propganda purposes. Humiliation and domination games are something best limited to consenting adults who get off on that sort of thing. Thing is, if you're extracting information, do you or do you not want that information to be reliable? And if you think you're going to try the person, do you or do you not want their testimony acceptable in a court of law (and in US courts, that means you can't torture 'em)?

I'm a bit disgusted that torture is even a subject of debate, myself.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Great Editorial cartoon
Posted: Fri 23 Jan , 2009 6:19 pm
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Riverthalos wrote:
halplm wrote:
sauronsfinger wrote:
The purpose of torture is to........ get reliable information that is useful.
Actually, we've discussed several purposes of torture... to extract false confessions... to humiliate and dominate someone... to extract information...
Okay, so which of those uses is acceptable? To my mind, the only "acceptable" purpose for torture is to extract information. A false confession is meaningless outside propganda purposes. Humiliation and domination games are something best limited to consenting adults who get off on that sort of thing. Thing is, if you're extracting information, do you or do you not want that information to be reliable? And if you think you're going to try the person, do you or do you not want their testimony acceptable in a court of law (and in US courts, that means you can't torture 'em)?

I'm a bit disgusted that torture is even a subject of debate, myself.
To be clear, and as I have said earlier in the discussion, yes, only extracting information is what we've been talking about. SF just wasn't clear. Also, we are only talking about the grey area of things like waterboarding, which many think is torture, while others do not.

If you and I both agreed something was torture, then we would probably both agree it should never be used.

As far as the informaction extracted is concerned, this is a new topic. Obviously you want the information to be USEFUL. it's reliability is a funciton of what it is being used for. Regardless, the reliability of information depends on corroberation from other sources and accuracy, which is one part of an entire intelligence package.

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