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A couple years ago I learned how to SCUBA dive. I had a hard time and had to come in for extra pool sessions to keep up. Anyway, it was a friendly setting and I was there voluntarily and there were a few times when I thought I was drowning. It was terrifying. Sometimes I had to leave class early, I was so scared. A good lesson was the one where I never felt that panic. Most of the time, the best I could say was "Well, I didn't die." And I was in control, you know? If I wanted to ditch, I could. But I still, every now and then, have a drowning nightmare.

I can only imagine what it would be like to be a in a situation where I thought I was drowning AND the environment was not something as safe and happy and controlled as a SCUBA class. Or if the environment was just outright hostile and the people making me think I was drowning were people who wanted to hurt me and I had no choice (as opposed to SCUBA class, where they didn't want me to think I was drowning and the whole point was to be safe).

If anyone doubts whether waterboarding is torture, read the account of someone who voluntarily underwent it to find out for himself:

Believe me, it's torture

He still has nightmares about it.

And, since he volunteered, he could have stopped it at any time. It was far, far worse for those who were subjected to it by force.

and do you think victims of terrorism have nightmares?

Sure. But this isn't math class. The negatives don't cancel each other. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. That and we're supposed to be, like, the good guys. Or something.

Good point River.

This discussion is not about terror victims having nightmares. Its not about payback. It is about the decision of President Obama as reflected in the editorial cartoon that I linked to in the opening post.

What divides a smart person from a person who only thinks they are smart is that the smart person knows what they do not know. The person who thinks they are smart thinks they know everything. Or has been said elsewhere....Wisdom is what you learn after you know it all.

On thing I learned is that there are people who know more than you about certain things. When you find those people, respect them.... listen to their information ... cherish their knowledge and learn from them.

When longtime experts on torture say it is not reliable and does not produce the security results that it is intended to produce, that is all I need.

I too find this repellent but I am still interested in exploring the psychology and reasons of the apologists for torture.
You see if it is a valid and useful interrogation technique it should be widely and routinely used. I'd like to know why hal doesn't think it should be widely used.
Why stop at saving lives? Why not use it more often? The family members of suspects may have useful information which they will not divulge through loyalty. Should it be extended to them? To save lives naturally.
Don't call it a straw man. I am not suggesting you hold one position or another, I am just exploring the ramifications of your belief.

sauronsfinger wrote:

When longtime experts on torture say it is not reliable and does not produce the security results that it is intended to produce, that is all I need.

Yes, and it absolves you of the awesome responsability of thinking for yourself.

River, this isn't an eye for an eye we're talking about. "Torturing" someone so grotesquely that they are not harmed in any way, but have nightmares... is not the same as planning to blow up skyscrapers.

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Yes, and it absolves you of the awesome responsability of thinking for yourself.

not to mention both typing and spelling for yourself also.

Halplm - are you so into yourself that you reject the wisdom of those who have more knowledge and more experience that you do in a specific field?

And I would also be very interested in seeing your answers to the questions posed by Tosh.

Sf, insulting someone's spelling is uncalled for and ignorant. You yourself are no expert, so back off.

halplm wrote:

River, this isn't an eye for an eye we're talking about. "Torturing" someone so grotesquely that they are not harmed in any way, but have nightmares... is not the same as planning to blow up skyscrapers.

Okay, so I'm confused. You asked about terror victims having nightmares after I mentioned drowning nightmares and Jude posted the Hitchens article. I concluded you were arguing that in the case of suspected terrorists such side effects were deserved and thus stated my own attitudes towards vengeance. Now you say that's not what you were getting at and as I read your quote above, you're presenting torture as a form of punishment? What exactly is your position here? Under what circumstances do you think torture is useful and why?

sauronsfinger wrote:

Halplm - are you so into yourself that you reject the wisdom of those who have more knowledge and more experience that you do in a specific field?

Not at all, but that doesn't mean I blindly accept their opinion as incontrovertable fact. It is much more useful, to understand how they came to their conclusions, and determine if you would come to the same conclusions, or if you would think differently.

I have answered Tosh's questions as best I can. I am not an apologist for torture, and I don't appreciate being called one. The scenarios being put forth are nothing I have expressed an opinion on.

Riverthalos wrote:

halplm wrote:

River, this isn't an eye for an eye we're talking about. "Torturing" someone so grotesquely that they are not harmed in any way, but have nightmares... is not the same as planning to blow up skyscrapers.

Okay, so I'm confused. You asked about terror victims having nightmares after I mentioned drowning nightmares and Jude posted the Hitchens article. I concluded you were arguing that in the case of suspected terrorists such side effects were deserved and thus stated my own attitudes towards vengeance. Now you say that's not what you were getting at and as I read your quote above, you're presenting torture as a form of punishment? What exactly is your position here? Under what circumstances do you think torture is useful and why?

Not "deserved," but certainly acceptable. You don't think that giving someone a nightmare is preferable to them going out and killing a thousand people?

I don't think it's an either/or scenario. Nor would I trust anything someone says under torture. As it says in the Senate report I linked, these coercive techniques are fantastic for eliciting a false confession, but a false confession has no value in an intelligence setting.

Well, I think it certainly might be(an either/or scenario), and the risk of a few nightmares is a small price to pay to even maybe possibly save one life, not to mention thousands...

Well I don't. And you're not going to change my mind. There are lines that, if we are to stand for anything, we must not cross.

Well, it seems we'll get to see how that works out.

I would like to point out that 9/11 happened because intelligence agencies weren't talking to each other, not because someone didn't want to beat the shit out of a prisoner. The warning signs were all there; if the people involved hadn't been so involved in their turf wars they might have been able to pool resources and put it together.

Alatar
point taken.

My point was evidently missed.

People in glass houses and all that.

or .....Don't insult me by saying quoting an expert shows i cannot think for myself when your own shortcomings are also on display.

I hope that clears it up.

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sauronsfinger wrote:

Halplm - are you so into yourself that you reject the wisdom of those who have more knowledge and more experience that you do in a specific field?

Halplm replied
Not at all, but that doesn't mean I blindly accept their opinion as incontrovertable fact. It is much more useful, to understand how they came to their conclusions, and determine if you would come to the same conclusions, or if you would think differently.

But that exercise gets you nowhere because neither of us, nor anyone else has the exact combination of expertise, knowledge, background, education, or experience that led the expert to make that conclusion.

Even after we told you that you were banned from the Symposium, you still keep at it.

We're working on setting the permissions up correctly, just fyi.