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Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Wed 18 Feb , 2009 6:24 pm
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Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Paul Benedict wrote:
We can no more afford to continue to invest in Social Security than we can afford to invest with Bernie Madoff. The very structure of Social Security's pay as you go' system defines its historic, present, and ultimate insolvency. The notion that benefits to older Americans can be sustained by confiscating, without investment, funds from younger workers is as flawed as Marxism itself. The proof of the mendacity of this thinking is also the most daunting challenge to ending its domination of the lives of wage laborers. That is, after more than sixty years of this financial experiment, if America decided to end Social Security today, wage earners would have to generate 22 trillion dollars of benefits for those who are retired or who are near retirement.

There is, however, an opportunity to generate this amount of funding though of the engines of wealth provided by faithful, honest investment in a free market system. For instance, as is explored in "Financial Stimulus, Bank Bail Outs, and Ending Social Security," instead of having only $250, 000 dollars generated by payroll taxes over forty years of Social Security taxation, real investment at a modest rate of return would yield nearly $700,000. Using the power of compounding interest, this generation can pay off the twenty-two trillion without losing its expected personal retirement income, and, at the same time, provide that the next generation, our children and their children, can live as a free, wealthy and prosperous people. We can end Social Security, and, as good parents and citizens, we should not rest until we have put a stake through the heart of this monster with a constitutional amendment.

Actuarially, the difference between the median household contributions and those same contributions compounded at an annual rate, demonstrate that technically we can end Social Security in a generation, pay off all the benefits as promised, and perhaps even have a little extra left over. The biggest challenge to ending Social Security is finding the political will to end the program. The moves to "reform," "save," or eventually "replace" Social Security have gained no traction. Indeed, the failure of any momentum for reform can be seen as the Gettysburg of the Gingrich congressional revolution. Sadly though, it is the purveyors of financial enslavement who have, seemingly, emerged victorious, not the armies of liberty. The failure was, in part, because the movement was co-opted by legislators who had more of an interest in commissions for Wall Street than the liberation of their constituents. The failure was, however, primarily the result of the general cowardice of a political class living in the shadow of polls, polls driven by a liberal intelligentsia that constantly calls us back to Egypt, to Europe, and to slavery.

The moral compass that landed rights give a free people vanish when wage earners have no hope of financial freedom. Our children will grow up with the psychology of victims dependent on the federal government because they ARE victims. For the median family, after forty years of paying 12% to 15% of its income to the federal government, to be offered benefits only slightly above the poverty level does, in fact, make the core producers and voters in America victims that have been reduced to dependency on the federal government. Can such a voting block have the interests of self-government at heart? No, because they are victims, core constituency groups who will never see the tangible benefits and rewards of property, can be easily deceived into seeing only the immediate benefits of not paying income taxes. Even more tragically, these same producers rejoice at receiving tax breaks for paying outrageous sums each year in interest to a banking system that manages their debt so precisely that the "Company Store" itself must blush.

It should not be surprising, then, that with the benefits of liberty thus cloaked, no Social Security reformation plan has been dramatic enough to clear the murky, hellish citadels of the bankrupt intelligentsia. If those who understand the depravity of the current "retirement system" will be bold and begin with no compromises, Americans will understand how much is at stake. On the other hand, if those who would be free are willing to compromise with economic systems that share more in common with feudalism than with liberty, then their failure is deserved.

More specifically, the problem with the Social Security plans presented under President Bush from 2003 to 2008 is that, first of all, none of them go far enough. These plans, for the most part, have sought to "save" Social Security. Such compromise plans will not generate enough income to pay off the already incurred debt, and their failures to do so will only make our children more hopeless and more resigned to having upwards of 15% of their income confiscated by the United States government before that government has provided even one constitutionally required service. Nonetheless, many of the plans were carefully thought out and crafted. Studying the things the plans did well helps document the serious challenges that Social Security reform presents.

There were 29 plans for Social Security reform evaluated by the Office of Social Security's Chief Actuary offered from 2003 to 2008. The Representative E. Clay Shaw, Jr's Social Security Guarantee Plus Plan, offered by in 2003, was one of the first plans. It would eventually result in Social Security benefits being paid from individual investment accounts. The planned transition would have been very complex, and its ultimate result seems to have been benefits based on a 3.5% investment of the 12.4% confiscated by the Social Security payroll tax. It is very difficult to ascertain whether or not a 3.5% investment would be nearly enough to offer a benefit of significant value to a retiree. The end result might well be a marginal increase in the overall solvency of Social Security, but such a middling approach, like many others, cannot succeed because it is not complete. The notion that we must save Social Security must be dispensed with. We must completely and utterly end Social Security, and, once this generation has paid the costs for the next generation to escape the clutches of this blood sucking communist propaganda program, we must eliminate any future program of any similar type by laws as immutable as men can frame. Of significance is paragraph three of E. Shaw's letter to congress expressing his faith in his Guarantee Plus Plan for Social Security reformation. "Under my plan," writes E. Clay Shaw of Florida's ninth district, " Nobody would receive less than what is promised under current law, including COLAs. Nobody is exposed to individual investment risk" The promise that no retiree will be exposed to individual retirement risk is an absolutely essential part any Social Security reform plan. Such a guarantee goes to the very heart of the original purposes of Social Security. In the Great Depression American landscape of bank failures and stock market collapses, such a government guarantee was particularly inviting. Make no mistake about it, the recent threats of a Wall Street Collapse of similar proportions is a significant challenge to overcome in seeking to end today's Social Security. The suddenness, the complexity, and the vast sums involved in financial stimulus packages and in the TARP funds will, even if no further calamities ensue, serve as a reminder for all Americans how precarious our savings in this world can be. Nonetheless, this monster that drinks our blood was forged in an atmosphere of financial disaster and it may be that only in the crucible of apparently similar crises might Social Security's dark, enslaving powers be dissipated.

A challenge that did not exist in the times of FDR and the origin of Social Security now exists for all who would end the American retirement system. Since the Great Depression Keynesian big government deficit spending has accelerated inflation at a rate that rivals the standard of living increases accrued through the free enterprise, free market system. Even after winning two world wars and developing technology able to put a man on the moon, and, more recently, moving an army of women and mothers from the home to the workplace, the pace of inflated incomes has at times given serious chase to the increased power of production in the American workforce. Should the miraculous power of the engine of United States economic development only hold steady, the pace of our deficits may result in inflationary patterns that completely overwhelm our marketplaces. Without actually knowing the facts and figures, many Americans understand this implicitly. Mr. Shaw's plan plainly and straightforwardly addresses this concern, and so must any plan that seeks to privatize social security. However, Mr. Shaw's plan is too conservative. On the one hand the meager investment accounts themselves might barely keep up with inflation and the government guarantees themselves, spooky little certificates or not, might not be adequate to the challenges of future, unforeseeable COLA's.

There are, then, three direct challenges to serious Social Security reform: the twenty-two trillion dollars we now owe to those at or near retirement age, interpreting for the American public the twenty-two trillion in terms of inflation over twenty years, and an atmosphere of distrust for large financial institutions of investment that is at least equal to, or greater than that faced in FDR's age. There is, however, one advantage that those of us who would put a stake through the heart of Social Security have that our forebears, even as recently as Regan, did not have. Today, no one trusts the federal government to keep their word. Only bankers and brokers are more mistrusted than our duly elected representatives. This distrust can be turned into a positive American force for the future if we can show younger Americans how to convert the 12.4% of their income confiscated under the present system into something of real and tangible value, like gold, that does not entirely lose value in recessions and escalates in value with inflation. If we can show Americans how, within the span of a decade, to convert 12.4% of their paychecks into a tangible capital asset that will begin to yield benefits equal to a lifetime of earned Social Security, they will begin to listen. This is possible.

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Lidless
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Fri 28 Aug , 2009 9:13 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Yes, let poor old people die quicker. It'll make Medicare cheaper.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Fri 28 Aug , 2009 9:24 pm
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Perhaps we can save some time here.


http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=99842

Or we could print the original debates on Social Security from the mid Thirties when the idea was proposed and discussed in Congress.

Last edited by sauronsfinger on Sat 29 Aug , 2009 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Sat 29 Aug , 2009 2:46 am
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Quote:
For the median family, after forty years of paying 12% to 15% of its income to the federal government, to be offered benefits only slightly above the poverty level does, in fact, make the core producers and voters in America victims that have been reduced to dependency on the federal government.
The idea behind Social Security is to get back what you put in and thus stay alive, not get rich off it. With that in mind, I just did some quick math...

15% of my current annual income (which according to the author is the upper end of the range I could be paying in) is below the federal poverty line for a single person. I'd have to make ~12K more per year than I do now to truly get back what I've paid in, and then beyond that I'd be getting back less. If the poverty level being referred to is the poverty line for entire families and not individuals, then the tipping point is even higher. If Social Security benefits are above either poverty line, and my income never crosses the tipping point, I'd actually be getting back more than I put in. My point being, you're actually getting a return on the non-investment. It's not very comfortable, of course, but it's a safety net. Safety nets aren't comfortable. They just keep you alive.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Sat 29 Aug , 2009 3:53 am
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sauronsfinger wrote:
CG
I see you are so devoid and barren of intellectual ideas that you have now resorted to recycling crap you spewed out six months ago.
Check the date I posted that you senile fool.

You'll find that I posted that particular rich and bountiful idea six months ago.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Sat 29 Aug , 2009 10:58 am
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Rich and bountiful????? That is why nobody cared to say one word about it for six months? Yup, you did post it back then and I thought it just came up...my bad as they say. I made a mistake. I will go back and change my initial post. I apologize for my initial insult to you.

It seems that every single member ignores it like the plague for six months, and then it comes back because a member throws a one-liner making fun of the idea at it. My error was in thinking it just got here because it had been wisely consigned to the trash heap for half a year. Your error was in posting such ideological extremism in the first place. If making an error in not looking at the date of your post makes me senile in your eyes, fine. It still gives me twice the mental power that you exhibit in clinging to such radical right wing mindlessness. As we used to say when I was an altar boy many years ago - mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

I do have a NEW thing to discuss about social security that has not been run into the ground countless times before. I would love to hear what others think about it, especially those who want to end it.

Republicans and libertarians are patting themselves on the back claiming that the outrage and anger we see at some town hall discussions on health care reform show that the bill does not have popular support and should not be passed by Congress. Given the rather small number of people who have expressed this outrage and anger compared to the actual population, how in the world do the opponents of social security expect to gain any political traction for stopping it? It is not inconceivable to guess that we would have at least ten times the people screaming loudly if a program like social security were the focus of town meetings and a bill was afoot to gut it. The anger you now see would pale in comparison to true grass roots anger in trying to stop social security.

Don't you think the politicians have eyes and can figure this out? Any effort to kill or gut SS does not have a chance no matter how many studies anyone can produce. There simply is not the political will to make it happen in the face and opposition of the voting public.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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nienna
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Sat 29 Aug , 2009 7:47 pm
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sf wrote:
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...how in the world do the opponents of social security expect to gain any political traction for stopping it? It is not inconceivable to guess that we would have at least ten times the people screaming loudly if a program like social security were the focus of town meetings and a bill was afoot to gut it. The anger you now see would pale in comparison to true grass roots anger in trying to stop social security.
Funny you should say that, sf, I've seen similar comments on this side of The Pond:
Quote:
The classic definition of "chutzpah" is the kid who kills both of his parents and then begs for mercy because he is an orphan. The Wall Street crew are out to top this. After wrecking the economy with their convoluted finances, and tapping the US Treasury for trillions in bail-out bucks, they now want to cut Social Security and Medicare because we don't have the money.

If there is any effort in Congress to follow-up on this talk about taking away people's Social Security and Medicare, then there will have to be some very serious pain inflicted on the politicians in Washington.

Unlike Robert Rubin's Citigroup, Social Security is solidly funded long into the future. According to the latest report from the Congressional Budget Office, it can pay all promised benefits through the year 2049, with no changes whatsoever. Even after that date it will always be able to pay benefits that are far higher than what current retirees receive.

So, the claim that Social Security is going broke is inaccurate, or in less polite circles, a lie. Workers in their 40s 50s, and 60s have already paid for their Social Security benefits.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... l-security

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Sat 29 Aug , 2009 8:08 pm
Filthy darwinian hobbit
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I think that it has to be proven that Social Security will go bankrupt so it can then be claimed that the government can't run anything successfully. Truth doesn't come into it where ideology is concerned.

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nienna
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Sat 29 Aug , 2009 9:03 pm
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Great article from MotherJones

Security Blanket: How Social Security Can Save Us All
Quote:
As things stood before the [economic] crisis, 22 percent of the elderly relied solely on Social Security, and while their living standard was very modest, most were still above the poverty line. For the most part we will not return to the days when the corpses of old paupers were collected from the city streets.

But imagine where we'd be if Congress had accepted George W. Bush's privatization plan. The part of Social Security siphoned off to private accounts would have suffered the market's losses, and recipients would be forced to live off a basic benefit substantially lower than Social Security presently is. At the lower end, Social Security is already not much. (The 2009 median is only $13,950 a year.) Cut it back enough and life expectancies could start to fall.

That's no joke. In Russia, male life expectancy following the industrial collapse in 1991 dropped from 65 to 58 years, mostly due to depression, alcoholism, violence, themselves due to the destruction of savings through hyperinflation and the lack of public health care. Don't think it can't happen here. It would, if Social Security and Medicare didn't stand in the way.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Mon 31 Aug , 2009 11:30 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
Republicans and libertarians are
so different even Daily Kos recognizes that simple fact.

Top 10 Signs You Might Not Be A Libertarian

It takes a determined blindness to not recognize that.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Tue 01 Sep , 2009 12:55 am
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Whatever kills old people quicker. Isn't that what Obama stood for during his campaign? Yes We Can ... kill the elderly.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Tue 01 Sep , 2009 1:07 am
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CG wrote
Quote:
announced that it is
hey, four words taken all by themselves without any context ....

pretty dumb huh?

OH! and a link

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=35056897262

now its even dumber. :banana:

but not as dumb as this
Quote:
[quote]sauronsfinger wrote:
Republicans and libertarians are

so different even Daily Kos recognizes that simple fact.

Top 10 Signs You Might Not Be A Libertarian

It takes a determined blindness to not recognize that.
[/quote]

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Lidless
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Tue 01 Sep , 2009 6:33 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Would it be called Youthanasea?

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Tue 01 Sep , 2009 5:44 pm
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Wow, sf. That group is a whole 65 people big.

Not only are they exactly the people that Daily Kos was talking about (and you are the target audience they were hoping to inform) it's obvious that 65 people are going to completely reshape both the Libertairan Party and the Republican Party. After all, in California alone, the dues paying members are 1500 and 1200 respectively, a far smaller number than 65.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Tue 01 Sep , 2009 5:55 pm
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Quote:
Wow, sf. That group is a whole 65 people big.
which was kind of the point in putting up a link to show you how silly your post was in the first place.... but again, that is lost on you. One post on DailyKos about libertarianism is hardly authoritative......... there were many things that Daily Kos got wrong in that piece.

OOOOPPPPSSS!!!!!!!.....

you hate the word "authoritative"..... lets go with "meaningful" then.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Tue 01 Sep , 2009 9:58 pm
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The Daily Kos article was spot-on - although you'd have to know the subject matter to know that.

But then willful blindness was ever your forté. Even the writers at Daily Kos can see the glaring differences you pretend don't exist.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Tue 01 Sep , 2009 10:39 pm
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Tell that to your fellow libertarians over on the Ron Paul Forum site called Liberty Tree. Almost every position that the Kos article cites as not being libertarian is embraced by folks there. If those positions are not libertarian - then who in the hell is dominating all those message posts over at the Paul Forum site? Explain that to us of Lord of Libertarianism.

And speaking of the Ron Paul Forum site, it is most interesting that for a bunch of zealots who claim to love freedom and rights, they extend nothing of the kind to those who oppose their ideology by expressing contrary opinions. They make no claim to observing anyones right of free speech but their own. People get banned for taking positions contrary to what they think should be expressed. The rules indicate you cannot say things which will irritate other members - especially if you are new. Which more than gives us an strong indication of what we would have to look forward if they ever did get power.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Thu 03 Sep , 2009 4:08 pm
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So CG - you think that the apologist on Daily Kos had libertarianism pegged right? Wrong. There are more wacko, birther, death panel, just plain bat shit crazy people on libertarian issues than you can shake the proverbial stick at. Just go to the libertarian website for RonPaulForums.com - Liberty Tree. Just look at the stuff there today. Normally I leave this stuff alone and could not care less what the wacko's post there. But you seem to have your head in the sand and cling to the Daily Kos error filled post like its some lifeboat of redemption. So here we go....

Here is a thread started to get a nation wide boycott on September 8 to keep your kids home from school so they will not be forced to hear the President of the USA who will be speaking to motivate them to have a good school year.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=208439

Notice that the libertarian who started this thread is also a member of the extreme rightwing John Birch Society.

Here is one where libertarians can compare Obama with Hitler

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=208505

and speaking of Der Fuerher

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=208204

that one features libertarians defending Pat Buchanan in saying that Hitler did not want world war

in the following one, libertarians have a good time explaining what powerful guns you need to blow the heads off zombies as they invade your town

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=179897

I guess that is for the batshit crazy crowd

here is a thread where libertarians debate the virtues of arming 10,000 libertarians and invading Washington DC to arrest federal officials they do not like

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=206602

and of course we could not leave out the Southern libertarians favorite topic next to outright hatred of the government, the beloved and romantic issue or treason against ones own nation.... otherwise knows as secession

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=208445

one libertarian after another preaching the virtues of turning tail on their own nation because of a sacred cause such as preserving the rights of slave owners

here is a thread where libertarians can pour out hatred and call Senator Olympia Snowe vile and sexist names

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=208701

this is one of my favorites being a retired teacher.... a public school teacher brags about defying the order of the school authorities to confiscate student cell phones citing their right to property and openly brags about trying to suck up to students and getting them to like them for the act of defiance BUT is reluctant to let the authorities know what they actually did because they might lose their job --- now that is real libertarian convinctions in action

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=208295

here is one where libertarians argue that the US Constitution is illegal

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=208646

and one which argues that the institution of a free system of public education is a great danger to our free society

www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=206933

which must explain why we have no a shred of freedom left after 200 years of public education.

Do you need more to show that libertarians are passing Alice as she falls headlong down the rabbit hole towards insanity????? The author at Daily Kos did not know what he was talking about and a quick visit on the most visible of Libertarian political message boards proves it.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Sat 12 Sep , 2009 10:22 pm
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The point, which you clearly missed, isn't that there are crazy libertarians (and crazy liberals and crazy conservatives).

The point is that libertarians are different from conservatives. Even the crazy ones.

But you don't want to get that point, do you?

Even at Daily Kos (of all places) they can tell the difference. But you are unable to.

Much like those described here who cannot define libertarianism in the first place, as one of those who "have enormous difficulty with, and often a strong aversion to, recognising something that doesn’t fit their established categories."

But for those who are objective enough (not you) to wonder if there might still be any relationship left between libertarians and Republicans, this says otherwise.

_________________

It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Ending Social Security with the Youth Vote
Posted: Wed 16 Sep , 2009 11:29 am
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The fact is undeniable - the many links I provided you all show that people who identify themselves as libertarians do indeed take many of the extreme, whacko, far right wing positions that both you and the daily kos opinion piece that you cite seem to feel show a different side. All this proves is that both of you are wrong. Just go to the Ron Paul Forum site today and see for yourself.

The KOS article you embrace indicates that libertarians do not take certain whacko right wing positions on several issues. I provided you with links to libertarian forums which demonstrate that the article is wrong and that libertarians do indeed take radical right wing positions on these same issues. the evidence was provided for all to see, self induced willful blindess to the contrary.

Some biased article you take from a libertarian apologist site hardly proves the contrary that there is not a major confluence between right wing republicans and libertarians. In fact, for many, it is like having to tell the difference between six and a half-dozen. Ron Paul is a republican and libertarian. So is his kid running for office. Peter Schiff - your economic pin up boy - is running for office as a republican. The dozens of elected House members who identify themselves as members of the House Liberty Caucus join the crowd. There are many more examples.

As for your link..... Florida schmorida. Read the article... it is all about a intra-party squabble centered around which Republican candidates get party backing in the 2010 primary. It is much ado about nothing. Check that- its not even much ado.... it does not rise to that level. As always, you say one thing, provide a meaningless link which does nothing to support it, but want to act as if you have just won a Supreme Court case. Nothing new in that.

CG - you should get over to the Ron Paul forums.... here is an idea I can support 1000% and would even donate to

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=209748

you may notice the rather lukewarm reception it is getting from your fellow libertarians. It looks like they want their cake, want to eat it too, and then want to be able to criticize the baker before asking for a second helping. Its a good thing that the pilgrims were not libertarians or the history of America would be a very different thing.... all talk and no action ...... people who want to run their mouth but never actually run anything else.

_________________

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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