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De Toqueville on the fragility of democracy

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solicitr
Post subject: De Toqueville on the fragility of democracy
Posted: Mon 02 Mar , 2009 4:55 pm
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It seems that if despotism came to be established in the democratic nations of our day, it would have other characteristics: it would be more extensive and milder, and it would degrade men without tormenting them …

I do not fear that in their chiefs they will find tyrants, but rather schoolmasters…
It would resemble paternal power if, like that, it had for its object to prepare men for manhood; but on the contrary, it seeks only to keep them fixed irrevocably in childhood; it likes citizens to enjoy themselves provided that they think only of enjoying themselves. It willingly works for their happiness; but it wants to be the unique agent and sole arbiter of that; it provides for their security, foresees and secures their needs, facilitates their pleasures, conducts their principal affairs, directs their industry, regulates their estates, divides their inheritances; can it not take away from them entirely the trouble of thinking and the pain of living?

The sovereign extends its arms over society as a whole; it covers its surface with a network of small, complicated, painstaking, uniform rules through which the
most original minds and the most vigorous souls cannot clear a way to surpass the crowd; it does not break wills but it softens them, bends them, and directs them; it rarely forces one to act, but it constantly opposes itself to one’s acting; it does not destroy, it prevents things from being born; it does not tyrannize, it hinders, compromises, enervates, extinguishes, dazes, and finally reduces each nation to being nothing more than a herd of timid and industrious animals of which government is the shepherd …

Now, is this not what NuLab has done to Britain, and what Obama is trying to do to America? Is it not the case that without economic liberty, political liberty is an illusion?

Discuss.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: De Toqueville on the fragility of democracy
Posted: Mon 02 Mar , 2009 5:47 pm
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It's all an illusion, has been for many years. We thought we could buy it with plastic and party until the sun came up. We thought we could finance two wars without any sacrafic on the homefront. We thought we all needed the bigest and best house, car, TV, boat. We thought we needed more more more. Now our house of cards is falling. The right blames the left, the left blames the right. And all the blaming is doing nothing to fix anything. We all fiddle as Rome burns.


That said, I am a Goth. ;) :devil:

have a nice day.

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laureanna
Post subject: Re: De Toqueville on the fragility of democracy
Posted: Tue 03 Mar , 2009 1:04 am
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Quote:
It would resemble paternal power if, like that, it had for its object to prepare men for manhood; but on the contrary, it seeks only to keep them fixed irrevocably in childhood; it likes citizens to enjoy themselves provided that they think only of enjoying themselves. It willingly works for their happiness; but it wants to be the unique agent and sole arbiter of that; it provides for their security, foresees and secures their needs, facilitates their pleasures,
I'd say the past administration focused fear mongering and keeping us fearful and submissive to government, rather than "facilitating our pleasure". I hope to see the present administration move away from that, to a more responsible and middle road of individual self reliance.

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solicitr
Post subject: Re: De Toqueville on the fragility of democracy
Posted: Tue 03 Mar , 2009 1:28 am
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Good heavens, laureanna, don't you recognize the naked fearmongering the O has been employiong? It's a crisis, it's a catastophe, we're all DOOMED unless we rush through these huge spending bills with more money than Carl Sagan can imagine before anybody gets a chance to read it! We need to double the national debt in a month! We need to fund every left-wing program we haven't been able to pass since Reagan took office RIGHT NOW- before the voters catch on to what we're up to.

And that's even before we get to the irresponsible and dishonest scaremongering of the Goracle and his end-of-the-world crew.

But speaking more broadly to AdT's Point: don't you see that 'progressivism', 'welfare statism', 'democratic socialism,' whatever label you give it, is precisely the infantilisation and paternalistic dependency T was warning about?

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Pippin4242
Post subject: Re: De Toqueville on the fragility of democracy
Posted: Tue 03 Mar , 2009 1:33 am
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It's hardly Obama's line alone - most of the Western world is quaking in its boots right now. The economic crisis is happening, no matter how people choose to market it.

-Pips-

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laureanna
Post subject: Re: De Toqueville on the fragility of democracy
Posted: Tue 03 Mar , 2009 1:53 am
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solicitr wrote:
Good heavens, laureanna, don't you recognize the naked fearmongering the O has been employiong? It's a crisis, it's a catastophe, we're all DOOMED unless we rush through these huge spending bills with more money than Carl Sagan can imagine before anybody gets a chance to read it! We need to double the national debt in a month!
Um, no, I don't recognize that as naked fearmongering. Sorry. :shrug:
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We need to fund every left-wing program we haven't been able to pass since Reagan took office RIGHT NOW- before the voters catch on to what we're up to.
I wouldn't characterize the spending bill that way. I'm working hard along with other engineers across the nation to find funds to fix crumbling roads and unsafe bridges that haven't been fixed since the Reagan era, not because they are left-wing programs but because there just isn't enough money to go around. People want their almighty freedom to drive their individual automobiles instead of taking public transit or other options, but they don't want to tax themselves to pay for the upkeep of those streets they drive on. Instead of spending money on the infrastructure each year, the feds are spending it on blowing up other people's infrastructure. Eventually, bridges will start collapsing. (Oh wait, that's already started happening.)

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: De Toqueville on the fragility of democracy
Posted: Tue 03 Mar , 2009 12:46 pm
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I see a fair amount of fear-mongering about the Obama administration. Fortunately it doesn't appear to be working. :)

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: De Toqueville on the fragility of democracy
Posted: Tue 03 Mar , 2009 7:00 pm
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laureanna wrote:

I wouldn't characterize the spending bill that way. I'm working hard along with other engineers across the nation to find funds to fix crumbling roads and unsafe bridges that haven't been fixed since the Reagan era, not because they are left-wing programs but because there just isn't enough money to go around. People want their almighty freedom to drive their individual automobiles instead of taking public transit or other options, but they don't want to tax themselves to pay for the upkeep of those streets they drive on. Instead of spending money on the infrastructure each year, the feds are spending it on blowing up other people's infrastructure. Eventually, bridges will start collapsing. (Oh wait, that's already started happening.)

A FRACKIN MEN, Sista. That's it all in a fracking nutshell. It's all good a well to own the car and its bad for someone to give up their 'god given right' to drive, but not to the taxes to fix road they drive on....like the roads just magically should take care of themselves.

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vison
Post subject: Re: De Toqueville on the fragility of democracy
Posted: Tue 03 Mar , 2009 8:36 pm
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Mr. Obama can hardly express the true nature of this economic catastrophe strongly enough. No American president would dare. The actual depth of the "recession" has not yet even shown on the depth-o-meter. Things are bad, but they are going to get much, much, much worse. We are in for a terrible time. I worry about how my grandchildren are going to fare, that's how bad I think this is.

I do hope I'm wrong. :(

Might as well chuck money at it. People always like to think they're doing something. Wouldn't it have been nice if the money spent on that lunatic invasion of Iraq had been spent usefully? Like maybe buying every American a NEW CAR!!! Or a big screen TV!!!!!!

As for global warming, well, keep right on burying your head in the sand. It's cooler that way. ;)

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: De Toqueville on the fragility of democracy
Posted: Tue 03 Mar , 2009 8:45 pm
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Vison,

The problem is right now certain people believe, even though he has been in office a little over a month, it's all Obama's fault. He's just trying to figure a way to clean up the mess made. Do I agree with all his methods, no, but we have to do something because doing nothing but giving rich people tax breaks hasn't worked the last 6.5 years.

I too worry about what my kids will inherit. I have had long talks with them about the need for a good education, about the need of saving money and the need to be very vigilant about fiscal responsiblity. Of course I am of the mind that I would rather pay my entire paycheck to taxes to save the country for them than have them burdened with this mess (of course that makes me a pinko stinky commie right ;) )

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vison
Post subject: Re: De Toqueville on the fragility of democracy
Posted: Wed 04 Mar , 2009 12:52 am
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Oh, I'm not dissing poor Mr. Obama, far from it. I don't see that he has much choice at this point. Well, he does have a choice, but he's not going to take it. I don't blame him. He would go down in history as the man who presided over the utter destruction of the US economy. The fact that NONE of it is ever going to be his fault? No one will care. The US economy is destroyed, in fact. A house of cards has fallen and has taken or will be taking much of the world with it.

To think that the modern consumer culture that throve on unending growth, spiralling prices, greedy buying of stupidly inessential goods has led to this. Is anyone really surprised? Added in is the vile pollution that poisons our air, water and earth so we could have plasma tv's and Blackberrys. It is to weep.

I don't like to think of "ordinary people" as being idiots. But if anyone presently alive and breathing and more or less thinking in the USA is already on Obama's case on this? Then they are idiots.

But it doesn't matter, unfortunately. Idiots or geniuses, they are all in the same boat.

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