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The Inevitable Crash

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Sun 10 May , 2009 1:45 am
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A statement like "like Rush Limbaugh and Lew Rockwell " is proof of the intellectual bankruptcy of the writer, whose sole premise is that everyone who disagrees with the author, no matter how different, is actually the same. People who disagree with each other entirely and whose only point of agreement is that they also disagree with people who write tripe like that quote are clearly not the same. They may appear the same to the uneducated, but they are not the same to anyone who has learned even the basics of political science.

One thing I notice is that you failed to give me Barney Frank's credentials. By your standards he doesn't have any - his degree is in law, not economics. By my standards he doesn't have any - he has never demonstrated that he can tell a demand curve from a Laffer curve.

In that speech, he very systematically said "it just ain't so" to every criticism of how the government caused this current mess. Given every date and every law he said "nuh-uh." In order to think that is brilliant one needs to forget speech as a native language and revert to the mindset where everyone who disagrees is the same no matter how different they are.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Lidless
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Sun 10 May , 2009 10:09 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
A speech by noted economic ignoramus Barney Frank saying that anyone who blames programs he likes is automatically wrong is hardly a refutation.
I had assumed that the speaker would be attacked rather than any facts stated. That's what this board descends to most of the time - ad hominem, and I'm guilty of it too alas from time to time. It's a tiresome short-cut, a schoolyard-twitter version of arguing and debating.

Given Frank was on the House Financial Services Committee for six years might mean he knows a few more facts than anyone here. I'm not using a argumentum ad verecundiam argument here, nor would I want to debate that logical sideshow.

Care to actually debate / refute any of the statements he made?

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Sun 10 May , 2009 11:02 am
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Lidless is 100% correct. Frank lays out an excellent case filled with solid evidence. Attack his case. Attack his evidence. Attack his recitation of events and those who were players in those events.

Quote:
Care to actually debate / refute any of the statements he made?
US Representative Barney Frank is giving you a history of events as they occured in Congress and within the government from the viewpoint of an elected official who participated in them and who tried to do something about it. He was there when actions were taken and is reporting on it. He does not have to an economist to provide than information. He does not have to be anything other than someone who has the knowledge of being there and being a participant.

CG - it is sad and rather pathetic that your loathing for me as a foe of both conservatism and libertarianism blinds you to reality. Here is your vitriol filled statement attacking me
Quote:
People who disagree with each other entirely and whose only point of agreement is that they also disagree with people who write tripe like that quote are clearly not the same. They may appear the same to the uneducated, but they are not the same to anyone who has learned even the basics of political science.
"entirely"????? "People who disagree with each other entirely"????? And "their only point of agreement is that they also disagree with people who write tripe like that quote are clearly not the same" ???????

Lets examine that in detail.

There is wide area of agreement between conservatives on the right and libertarians , many of whose positions also are on the right, sometimes even further right than Republican conservatives.

*** both are rabidly anti-labor union
*** both advocate policies that are pro Big Business and anti-working people- especially working people in the labor movement
*** both tend to be no friend of laws or programs aimed at helping minorities such as affirmative action programs
*** both tend to shun government programs which would regulate the excesses of Big Business
*** both scream loudly about reverting to Small Government (whatever that may be)
*** both have fought programs to make Big Business pay for environmental improvements
*** both have fought and opposed programs advocated by OSHA which protect workers on the job and in the workplace
*** both are no friends of public education and have participated in efforts to weaken the public school system
*** both are rabid supporters of guns and gun rights
*** both find themselves railing against government taxes and worship at the altar of "lower taxes"
*** both are on the fringes of a movement to increase states rights and even possible secession as a measure to decrease the power of the federal government
*** both worship at the altar of an economy based on the free enterprise system and free trade
*** both are deadset against any form of government backed or single payer health care system
*** both have advocated either getting rid of Social Security or privatization of it
*** both have tried to make scapegoats of immigrants
*** both have advocated ending government welfare programs for the poor
*** both seem to be in love with private charity efforts over government efforts to help the needy
*** both advocate the privatization of many current government services

There you have many areas of agreement between many Republican Conservatives and many Libertarians. Do you need more to show you that this is not just simply one area where they agree? Would it matter anyway? I suspect not.

Where did I get this list? I compared the platform of the Republican Party with the platform of the Libertarian Party and compared statements and actions by politicians in both.

http://www.lp.org/issues" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://www.gop.com/pdf/PlatformFINAL_WithCover.pdf" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I have provided both. Anyone wishing to do so can read them and find many more areas of agreement between the two.
Yes CG, I know you support more drugs and legalization for them and those are issues associated with some on the left and you cringe and rebel when somebody puts your philosophy on the right wing fringe. You have a right to cringe and feel uncomfortable. Its a free country. It is obvious that you, as well as many other libertarians, take great pride in thinking of themselves as something very special and distinct from the vast majority in the two party structure. You like to think that you defy the normal conventional labels and placement on the idealogical continuum. Again, its a free country and you can look at yourself any way that makes you feel comfortable.

"Whatever gets you through the night"
John Lennon 1974

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laureanna
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Sun 10 May , 2009 2:58 pm
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So what is the difference between a demand curve and a laffer curve, anyway?

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Sun 10 May , 2009 3:04 pm
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laffler curve

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve" target="_blank

demand curve

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_curve" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

It should be obvious how the distinctions between these two things are so critically important to the veracity of the speech made by Representative Barney Frank regarding housing and the role of Congress in it. :suspicious:

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Mon 11 May , 2009 7:29 pm
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Thank you for proving my point sauronsfinger. Nobody who knows what he is talking about would lump the two together.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Mon 11 May , 2009 7:46 pm
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One could not help but notice that you did not take exception to one item on that list. You did not single out one position and say that I got it wrong. All you did was throw out another personal insult based on your own longstanding vitriol for me because I oppose libertarianism and that makes me verbotten in your world.

thank for this
Quote:
Thank you for proving my point sauronsfinger. Nobody who knows what he is talking about would lump the two together.
That is just you expressing your own prejudiced opinion based on my opposition to libertarianism. It means nothing - less than nothing if that is possible.... and with you it certainly is. This is simply you plugging your fingers in your ears, hiding your head deep into the warm sand and saying "it ain't so cause I say it ain't so". That is fine. I do not type this stuff for you anyways - you are merely a means to an end of educating others and letting others make up their own mind.

The facts say otherwise and you have conveniently and intentionally ignored the long and exhaustive list I have supplied taken from the platforms of both the Libertarian Party and the Republican Party, statements from nominess and spokespersons from both, and leading persons from both.

Those facts indicate broad and sweeping areas of agreement of serious and important policy issues between the Libertarian Party and the Republican Party.

Despite your self-invented special scales designed to show you special and unique Libertarians are, despite all your statements of belief to the contrary, despite your clinging to the issue of legalized marinjuana like some badge of honor, when it comes down to it on all the issues that really matter, you and many other Libertarians are firmly right there on the Right with Conservative Republicans.

Rush Limbaugh, Lew Rockwell and CG. Sounds llike a famous slapstick comedy trio from the Forties movies ...... it will come to me in a bit.

I will make it easy for you to examine each one without have to scroll up the page

There is wide area of agreement between conservatives on the right and libertarians , many of whose positions also are on the right, sometimes even further right than Republican conservatives.

*** both are rabidly anti-labor union
*** both advocate policies that are pro Big Business and anti-working people- especially working people in the labor movement
*** both tend to be no friend of laws or programs aimed at helping minorities such as affirmative action programs
*** both tend to shun government programs which would regulate the excesses of Big Business
*** both scream loudly about reverting to Small Government (whatever that may be)
*** both have fought programs to make Big Business pay for environmental improvements
*** both have fought and opposed programs advocated by OSHA which protect workers on the job and in the workplace
*** both are no friends of public education and have participated in efforts to weaken the public school system
*** both are rabid supporters of guns and gun rights
*** both find themselves railing against government taxes and worship at the altar of "lower taxes"
*** both are on the fringes of a movement to increase states rights and even possible secession as a measure to decrease the power of the federal government
*** both worship at the altar of an economy based on the free enterprise system and free trade
*** both are deadset against any form of government backed or single payer health care system
*** both have advocated either getting rid of Social Security or privatization of it
*** both have tried to make scapegoats of immigrants
*** both have advocated ending government welfare programs for the poor
*** both seem to be in love with private charity efforts over government efforts to help the needy
*** both advocate the privatization of many current government services

There you have many areas of agreement between many Republican Conservatives and many Libertarians. Do you need more to show you that this is not just simply one area where they agree? Would it matter anyway?

Now what did I get wrong with each one of those?

If you dare.

Last edited by sauronsfinger on Mon 11 May , 2009 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Mon 11 May , 2009 7:49 pm
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Ok, you say they are similar, so let's go.

***both of them eat food
***both of them breathe
***both of them live in the United States
***both of them sleep regularly
***both of them wear clothing
***both of them speak English
***both of them can read and write
***both of them are interested in politics
***both of them are older than I am

Wow, they're identitcal.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Mon 11 May , 2009 7:53 pm
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Quote:
***both of them eat food
***both of them breathe
***both of them live in the United States
***both of them sleep regularly
***both of them wear clothing
***both of them speak English
***both of them can read and write
***both of them are interested in politics
***both of them are older than I am
sadly, you have attempted to be clever by coming up with a list that has nothing at all to do with the stands by either the Libertarians of the Republicans on the issues of the day. And that is what we are talking about.

I love when you do this. It exposes your idealogy to everyone... not to mention your inability to truly refute anything of substance.

Really CG, what do you think others here think when you attempt something like this? ANd lets face it, that is what it is all about. You do not post here to convince me you are right. You post here as part of a campaign to spread your idealogy and philosophy of libertarianism. When others read what you write and read stuff you just attempted, what do you think they will conclude when they see the big list of identical positions taken by Libertarians and Republicans and compare it to your claim that they only agree on one thing - and that is my writing?

here was your statement

Quote:
People who disagree with each other entirely and whose only point of agreement is that they also disagree with people who write tripe like that quote are clearly not the same. They may appear the same to the uneducated, but they are not the same to anyone who has learned even the basics of political science.


There is the real question.

Again, to make it easy for you

There is wide area of agreement between conservatives on the right and libertarians , many of whose positions also are on the right, sometimes even further right than Republican conservatives.

*** both are rabidly anti-labor union
*** both advocate policies that are pro Big Business and anti-working people- especially working people in the labor movement
*** both tend to be no friend of laws or programs aimed at helping minorities such as affirmative action programs
*** both tend to shun government programs which would regulate the excesses of Big Business
*** both scream loudly about reverting to Small Government (whatever that may be)
*** both have fought programs to make Big Business pay for environmental improvements
*** both have fought and opposed programs advocated by OSHA which protect workers on the job and in the workplace
*** both are no friends of public education and have participated in efforts to weaken the public school system
*** both are rabid supporters of guns and gun rights
*** both find themselves railing against government taxes and worship at the altar of "lower taxes"
*** both are on the fringes of a movement to increase states rights and even possible secession as a measure to decrease the power of the federal government
*** both worship at the altar of an economy based on the free enterprise system and free trade
*** both are deadset against any form of government backed or single payer health care system
*** both have advocated either getting rid of Social Security or privatization of it
*** both have tried to make scapegoats of immigrants
*** both have advocated ending government welfare programs for the poor
*** both seem to be in love with private charity efforts over government efforts to help the needy
*** both advocate the privatization of many current government services

And in getting bogged down with me you have conveniently ignored the challenge from Lidless to go back to the US Representative Barney Frank speech and point out whaty was wrong with it, refute it, show were he was in error. What happened to that?

here it is from Lidless
Quote:
Given Frank was on the House Financial Services Committee for six years might mean he knows a few more facts than anyone here. I'm not using a argumentum ad verecundiam argument here, nor would I want to debate that logical sideshow.

Care to actually debate / refute any of the statements he made?

_________________

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Mon 11 May , 2009 8:02 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
Now what did I get wrong
That could fill several encyclopedias but here goes.

Libertarians are not anti-union. They're not pro-union either. Binary thinkers cannot understand that, but it is still true. The right to unionize is well understood. What separates libertarians from those in the unions who say "you are either with us or against us" is that libertarians do not support special favors from the government to the unions. Unions love special favors. So do businesses. Libertarians oppose special favors to businesses as well. So Republican = pro-business, Democrat = pro-union, Libertarian = we're not in that conflict.

What big business policies exactly is it that the uninformed think libertarians support? Our opposition to bailouts? Our belief that a failing business should fail? Our opposition to protectionist tariffs and import quotas? Our opposition to government subsidies to business?

While it is true that Republicans often talk small-government, most of us have memories that begin before January of this year. We remember the Bush administration. Such exemplars of small government, they expanded it in ways that it would take many pages to describe. Only those who WANT to be fooled are anymore fooled by the difference between the words and the deeds of Republicans. Everyone who is honest with himself admits that the words and deeds are different. But some still say "well, they use your words so they agree with you." Nothing could be phonier.

It's already well established that you not only don't know what the libertarian environmental platform is, you have no desire to know what it is. Trying to describe it to you would create a 20 page flamewar, which is what you want. Suffice to say that Republicans oppose our position on the environment because it means they are responsible for the messes they create.

I guess that, for opposite reasons, Republicans and Libertarians are enemies of public education. For opposite reasons. Republicans want to further federalize it with "No Child Left Behind" while Libertarians want to not only de-federalize it and demolish the Department of Education they want to increase school choice by promoting private and home schooling. Opposite intentions with the same result.

Republicans are such supporters of gun rights that they nominated for president a senator whose grade from the NRA is an "F". And the NRA isn't even the best of the pro-gun groups, seen as compromisers by the rest.

Republicans do seem to be for lower taxers. They support taxes being 3% lower than the Democrats do. Gee, that's such a big gap. One person wants to spend $100. Another person wants to spend $99. A libertarian says "Spend $0." So you say that the $99 is the same as the $0. This goes beyond willful mis-information to willful delusion, perhaps willful insanity.

I guess that, for opposite reasons, Republicans and Libertarians are enemies of socialist medicine. For opposite reasons. Republicans want to further federalize it with "Perscription drug coverage for seniors" while Libertarians want to not only de-federalize it and demolish Medicare. Opposite intentions with the same result.

How can the party of open immigration scapegoat immigrants?

Now which government services exactly do Republicans want to get rid of?

Seriously, my list shows far more similarities than your list does.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Mon 11 May , 2009 8:12 pm
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You really dont get it do you? I could not care less WHY Republicans and Libertarians have the same positions on these issues or that they cross their t's and dot their i's differently in writing down the same words. I could not care less about it.

And I really could not care less what grade John McCain got from the NRA on some rating. My statement came from the Republican Party platform and the Libertarian Party platform. I even provided you with a link to check them out. John McCain is just one cog in a much larger wheel. Exceptions do not negate the rule and you fully know that... or at least you should.

And it does not matter that you folks do nto agree with everything the Republicans advocate. You do agree on enough to make you twin brothers of different mothers.

You ask about your party scapegoating immigrants:

from the platform and issue statement I linked to
Quote:
Today an estimated 12 million people live in the U.S. without authorization, 1.6 million in Texas alone, and that number grows every year. Many Americans understandably want the rule of law restored to a system where law-breaking has become the norm.
Your statement that "libertarians are not anti-union" is a sad joke. I have rarely come across a person who outright loathes organized labor as much as you do. And over the years you have provided many links to articles in librtarian publications against unions. Only recently you linked and reporduced lots of anti-union garbage against the EFCA from libertarian sources... the smartass "In Praise of the EFCA" for example.

Last edited by sauronsfinger on Mon 11 May , 2009 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Mon 11 May , 2009 8:18 pm
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Of course you don't care about what I wrote - it refutes what you wrote so you aren't going to read it. It doesn't matter if reality disagrees with you because if it does reality is wrong. Sauronsfinger or reality, I'll trust reality.

It takes willful blindness to not notice that the Republicans say one thing and do another. Only one person in the entire forum doesn't notice that. Everyone else remembers before January.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Mon 11 May , 2009 8:22 pm
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because you wrote nothing which changes anything or refutes anything of substance.

Its difficult to keep it to matters of substance when you want to discuss very minor differences.

Start with this: reproduce my statement, then go to the Party platforms and show me where I was wrong.

And when you are done with that, take up the challenge from Lidless and deal with the Barney Frank speech.
Quote:
It takes willful blindness to not notice that the Republicans say one thing and do another.
On some things , that is partially true. So what? That changes nothing that I claimed in my statements.

my original statement:
Quote:
There is wide area of agreement between conservatives on the right and libertarians , many of whose positions also are on the right, sometimes even further right than Republican conservatives.
my statement was made in response to this from you
Quote:
People who disagree with each other entirely and whose only point of agreement is that they also disagree with people who write tripe like that quote are clearly not the same.
You seem to have abandoned that with extreme prejudice.

Libertarians have it easy to hold to their positions compared to Republicans. Of course, when you are a eunuch it is easy to be celibate. Since Libertarians have no power of any kind, it is easy for them to take a public position and hold to it. Republicans have been hypocrites on many things. That is true. But they have not changed their positions and still share those with you folks.

Last edited by sauronsfinger on Mon 11 May , 2009 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Mon 11 May , 2009 8:28 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
Quote:
It takes willful blindness to not notice that the Republicans say one thing and do another.
On some things , that is partially true. So what? That changes nothing that I claimed in my statements.

Libertarians have it easy to hold to their positions compared to Republicans. Of course, when you are a eunuch it is easy to be celibate. Since Libertarians have no power of any kind, it is easy for them to take a public position and hold to it. Republicans have been hypocrites on many things. That is true. But they have not changed their positions and still share those with you folks.
So you admit that Republicans do not act like libertarians on the few areas where you claim we agree in words.

That's progress.
sauronsfinger wrote:
But they have not changed their positions and still share those with you folks.
We still share some words, but as you admitted they act differently from their words.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Mon 11 May , 2009 8:36 pm
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Quote:
So you admit that Republicans do not act like libertarians on the few areas where you claim we agree in words.
"Few areas" ???? :scratch:

Is that suppose to be an attempt at a joke. I gave you some 18 areas on major issues. And the issue was having similar stances on the issues as reflected in their platforms. And there is plenty more where that came from.

And CG, please, we cannot ever discuss how libertarians act on the issues because they never have the opportunity to put their money where their mouth is. Its easy for a eunuch to be celibate and that is what libertarians are when it comes to political power and the ability to exercise it.

So we cannot compare actions because libertarians never have the power to take any actions.

So their stance on the issues is the only thing we can compare with the Republicans stance on the issues. Any other standard of comparison is not fair to either one.

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Jude
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Mon 11 May , 2009 9:07 pm
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Pippin4242
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Tue 12 May , 2009 1:14 am
Hasta la victoria, siempre
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Jude wrote:
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Nicely put, my Obscure friend. :)

-Pips-

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Tue 12 May , 2009 3:38 am
bioalchemist
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*snork*

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Lidless
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Tue 12 May , 2009 6:55 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Care to debate/refute the actual points Frank made, or just continue with the ad hominem sideshow?

Both of you.

Or shall I ask that the thread be locked because you two, once again, are making it almost impossible for anyone to read anything about the topic in the thread? Honestly, it's like trying to get into a program but commercials keep interrupting the flow every few minutes.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The Inevitable Crash
Posted: Tue 12 May , 2009 11:29 am
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Lidless - I agree with the points Representative Frank made. I am glad to see that you have posted it here.

I have long felt that what is going to be an important part of this recovery is to have a formal investigation by Congress into the exact causes of this economic debacle. Then legislative and regulatory fixes can be tailored to correct those mistakes. Until that happens, it is simply too convenient for those on either wing to blame their favorite whipping boys and ignore what they may not want to face because of their own pet idealogy. This Barney Frank speech is a good example of shining the spotlight upon the facts and laying them out for all to see. We need more of it.

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