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Lord_Morningstar
Post subject: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 12:01 am
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Seeing as body image issues have always been something of a vouge on this board –

I’ve been reading a bit lately about the changing nature of western society’s view of male bodies. By and large, the debate over female body image has been going on now for over fifty years – the mass media has marketed a particular type of female body in western society as being ideal and desirable for as long as it has existed. Anorexia is widely-known and widely-recognised as a problem, there has always been a debate over the sexualisation of women in advertising, etc.

Now, there is a similar thing going on with men. It’s much newer, and therefore not as recognised. But the signs are interesting, as the article I’ve posted below shows – the use of unclothed men in advertising has increased, action figures have become more muscular, action movie stars have bulked up over the decades and are spending more time without their shirts on (he uses Batman as an example, but I’d also add in James Bond and the ancient warrior from the old sword-and-sandal epics compared to those in Troy and 300 as well). It’s unlikely that men of the 1920s and 1930s thought much about their bodies (unless they were overweight). In contrast, many, if not most, young men today aspire for a more muscular physique than they could possibly achieve. This the cause of muscle dysmorphia, informally called 'bigorexia'.

Here is the article, probably the most interesting that I’ve read on the subject. This is the part that deals with what I’m discussing in the thread:
Quote:
The marketing of nude men has likewise skyrocketed in recent years, putting the male body in the spotlight in a manner once exclusive to women. Researchers at Harvard Medical School conducted a study on this increase by reviewing advertisements in Glamour and Cosmopolitanâ€"prominent beauty magazines for womenâ€"over the last forty years.

What they found was "Over that time... the women shown in a "state of undress" stayed roughly constant, but the percentage of men showing skin "rose from virtually zero, until it surpassed the number of undressed women by the 1990s" (Swift 4). These findings reinforce the dramatic increase in the objectification of the male body, and reflect the origins of a process that has generated the increasedâ€"and increasingly unrealisticâ€"expectations of masculine appearance.
More disturbing, the evolution of cartoon and comic strip heroes has followed a similar process of supernatural bulking-up. Marketed to appeal to children and young men, these images leave a long-lasting impression on the malleable minds of those looking outward for models of what it means to be a man. One need only compare the fairly normal physique of Adam West as "Batman" from the 1960s to the muscled bat-suit donned by his modern-day successors to see how drastically these masculine icons have changed.

Likewise, G.I. JOE figuresâ€"arguably the most popular and enduring cartoon and toy marketed to boysâ€"have undergone a similar and more startling metamorphosis. From the time of their development in the 1970s to their present-day counterparts, the average G.I. JOE figure has undergone a radical body transformation in which his physique has becomeâ€"much like that of Barbieâ€"grossly unrealistic.

In a recent study entitled "Evolving ideals of male body image as seen through action toys," researchers discovered the scope of this muscular transformation. The results are startling: "Extrapolating the figures to a height of 5-foot-10 shows early [G.I. Joe] figures having chests of about 44 inches, compared with 46 to 62 today, and biceps of 12 inches, compared with 18 to 32 today" (Weight Net.1). So too have Star Wars figures released in the 1990s achieved proportions startlingly larger and more muscled than those originally released in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

A recent study by researchers at Harvard Medical School interviewed a sampling of young men about their satisfaction with their physique. The findings reflect the manifestation of a growing dissatisfaction with how they feel about their bodies. "College-age men in the United States, Austria, and France indicated they wantâ€"and believe women to preferâ€"a body with at least 27 more pounds of muscle than they possess..." (CNN 1).

Interestingly, these researchers also found through informal inquiry and anecdotal evidence that the average woman does not consider the ideal man to be as muscular as the men questioned believed they do (CNN 1). Due largely to manipulation by the media and its advertising syndicates, many men are being seduced into believing that their muscularity determines their success with women. The problem is that the men's assumption regarding what is "muscular" is exaggerated with respect to what "attracts" the typical. Men are fueled by an erroneous and socially propagated notion that such a body is what women wantâ€"that muscularity determines and almost exclusively reflects sexual potency.

In The Adonis Complex Pope cites a study in which young men were asked how satisfied they were with their own bodies. If dissatisfied, the young men were asked how they would like to be different. The results are startling, again confirming a growing trend: "...Boys of all ages, from eleven to seventeen, chose a body ideal that possessed about thirty-five pounds more muscle than they actually had themselves...This means that the majority of boys chose a body ideal that most men could attain only with steroids" (Pope 174).

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 2:56 am
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Well, apart from steroid use, at least getting stronger and more muscular is good for you, unlike the rail-thin imagery women get.


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Lord_Morningstar
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 3:14 am
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The problem in both cases has been the extremes – getting stronger and muscular is good for you, as is losing fat. But both the rail-thin ideal for women and the 250-lb image for men are (generally) unattainable while maintaining a healthy lifestyle.

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Nienor SharkAttack
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 3:51 am
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Quote:
Due largely to manipulation by the media and its advertising syndicates, many men are being seduced into believing that their muscularity determines their success with women. The problem is that the men's assumption regarding what is "muscular" is exaggerated with respect to what "attracts" the typical. Men are fueled by an erroneous and socially propagated notion that such a body is what women wantâ€"that muscularity determines and almost exclusively reflects sexual potency.
Personally, I find big muscles a huge turn-off. I'm not sure if it is because I think it looks kinda gross (http://www.starling-fitness.com/wp-cont ... uilder.jpg ...), or because it indicates a man obsessed with himself and his looks, caring only about how heavy weights he can lift and how many eggs he can eat. "Normal" muscles resulting from "normal" activities (or seeming to), on the other hand, are nice - if you keep in shape, you will get some muscles, and you will look good. But that's not first and foremost because of the muscles - to me.

I don't think I know a single woman who thinks the body builder look is attractive - but then again, I might hang out with the right people. ;)

Point is, guys, don't try to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger if you want success with this little woman. :P

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Lord_Morningstar
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 3:58 am
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I also don’t think I’ve ever heard a man say that the famine survivor look of female supermodels is attractive either – I certainly find it very unappealing myself. It’s odd how the image of attractiveness that society presents is sometimes different to what people actually find attractive.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 4:35 am
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Part of me feels bad for men who now have to deal or are beginning to deal with the same crap as women have had to deal with for (sorry to say this L_M) thousands of frakin years.

The other part of me, is it's about frakin' time the shoe was on the other foot. Get back to us in 5000 years and will see if you think heels, panty hose, corsets, ect are all that wonderful.

So I guess it's hard to live up to the imagery that is supposed manly beauty, but hey women have been living under the double standard for.....ever.

It sucks.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 4:38 am
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I'd like to ad, that in all of the animal kingdoms its the male of the species that preens and dances and works to get the women. However in the human species it's always been the women who have had to put on the finery to attract a mate.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 6:14 am
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The mating game is a very weird and subtle thing. Truth be told, men aren't all that detail oriented about a woman's appearance. Brands, the latest fashions, all of that is more or less lost on the XY crowd. Clean, healthy, and some degree of self-confidence will get a woman dates. Pay attention to that third item because it's a factor in the rest of the feminine ideal mind-frak we're all subjected too, because all the crap that goes beyond basic hygiene and healthy living is not so much women trying to attract men, it's women trying to intimidate other women. It's a display of how much more fit and sexy and desireable they are compared to you, meant to trash your self-confidence.

It works.

Men find it amusing and enjoyable because they like looking at tight little asses in short shorts, but at the same time, it was men who explained this to me. The guys really don't care about our clothes or hair or skin as much as we think they do. They really, really don't. But they will pick up on whether or not you hate yourself and that's not attractive.

Now, as for beauty standards in general, if you look back through time you'll find that the ideal has always been what was hard to achieve at the time. In the past, curves were much more desireable on women (well, in reality, they still are, but we're talking about fashion magazines and shit like that) because the average schmoe was poorer and hungrier and thinner. Nowadays, it's the other way around. It's easy to be curvy, therefore the ideal is to be skinny. And so much of that crap has been directed at women because we're buying into what they're selling us. The men were ignoring all the marketing shit, or maybe the marketers were ignoring the men and so men were given the luxury of enjoying a somewhat more honest set of standards, none of this void between the magazine covers and the actual reality of what's attractive to the other gender that women have been duking it out with for years. But that's changing and men are buying into the marketing and that's why the beefcake look is being sold as the ideal. Like the bone-bag look for women, the beefcake look for men is hard to obtain. If it were easy, something else would be the standard. There's a whole industry built on beauty. They have to sell us these images so we'll buy their products, and if the image is something easy to reach, we won't buy as much product. Get it?

I for one am not into the beefcake look. I like my men healthy and strong (you gotta be able to keep up with me =:)) but that whole chiseled muscle body-builder thing grosses me out. Looks unnatural, it does.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 11:17 am
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from Ara-anna
Quote:
I'd like to ad, that in all of the animal kingdoms its the male of the species that preens and dances and works to get the women. However in the human species it's always been the women who have had to put on the finery to attract a mate.
Perhaps that is because it is the female of the human species which has so much more to properly display and preen with? Women are simply beautiful works of art that should be shown to their ultimate degree of beauty and wonder. Men, on the other hand, are pretty utilitarian and without much in the way of physically redeeming qualities.

Women simply have got It. And if you have It, flaunt it.

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Lord_Morningstar
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 12:12 pm
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Ara-anna wrote:
I'd like to ad, that in all of the animal kingdoms its the male of the species that preens and dances and works to get the women. However in the human species it's always been the women who have had to put on the finery to attract a mate.
That has been commented on by biologists before. Generally, it’s the case because females invest far more in reproduction and therefore need to be more selective, and traits evolve in line with that. The peacock is a good example – the male peacock’s bright plumage and huge tail put him at a massive survival disadvantage, but provided he can mate with enough females before something eats him his genes will be passed on, and being noticeable increases his chances.

That said, I’m not convinced that the situation is reversed for humans. Traditionally, men still court women rather than visa-versa. Of course, male humans aren’t brightly coloured with enormous hairstyles or anything (most of us anyway ;)) but such dimorphism is more common in birds (although, like lions, we have more hair). Men are still required to show off status symbols, though, a trait that we share with the other Great Apes (I was reading an article recently on how male chimpanzees make offers of food to potential mates). This is going a little off topic, but Robert Winston did an experiment on one of his popular science TV shows with the BBC where he got a group of women sitting outside a cafe to assess how attractive he was. He rolled up first in a very old Volvo wearing jeans and a sweater without impressing them too much (one gave him 4/10 because he had a nice smile). He came back a few hours later in a sports car wearing a designer Italian suit with designer jewellery and his hair professionally styled and got far more positive responses.

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 1:23 pm
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The point has been made academically that female preening is really more about impressing other women (and thereby gaining social status) than it is about impressing men. Several of the comments above are consistent with that. In fact, I might cautiously suggest that in humans, both male and female, displays are aimed primarily at members of the same sex. The thing is, achieving a high rank in the "bachelor(ette) herd" automatically makes you attractive to the opposite sex as well. Biologically, the distinction is fuzzy. Behaviors/smells/appearances that intimidate members of the same sex also attract the opposite.

It's also worth noting that in other times and places, men decorated themselves to a much greater extent than they generally do in the modern western world. Imagine a medieval knight or Louis XIV. But as LM points out, it's always had a lot more to do with displays of status and rank than aesthetics.

Tangentially related: It seems to me that the "male target image" has changed very recently, at least over here in the US. The other day I saw an ad for a combination moisturizer and body wash for men. I'm not sure which part of that is the most wrong.

edit: change "worth nothing" to "worth noting" :blackeye:

Last edited by Dave_LF on Mon 13 Apr , 2009 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 2:24 pm
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Well I still feel bad for men now that the preening for other men has begun, not in a homosexual way, but the same way women preen for other women. The younger generation of males do preen for each other, and manscape everything.

I feel bad for men, but I also want to shout out, see this is what women have been subjected to for...ever.

I am not one for over developed muscular types, but I do like toned not bulky. However, I guess I am like most men Rio described, I like to look but when it comes to actual relationships, body plays a very little part. I'd take a good sense of humor and real true niceness over any six pack (well except maybe Brad Pitt in Troy).

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Feredir
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 6:12 pm
 
 
I have never felt the "need" the be a muscle head. However, I have always been criticized for not being 6' tall. Even though the average American male is 5'8", which makes me average, I work in a place where all but about three guys are taller than me. Also, some of the kids in church are taller than me. Of course there is nothing I can do about growing taller.

Since I have started going bald, mostly because of a hypo-thyroid, I get criticized for that more than anything. This comes from the kids as well as co-workers (male and female). That's the pressure I see more than anything is that you have to have a "full head of hair" to be taken seriously.


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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 8:41 pm
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Freddy,

Go read Estels post in the member lounge of the woman who is having gastric bypass.

I don't know why we humans are so absolutely hard on each other over things that make us out of the 'norm'.

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Nienor SharkAttack
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 8:52 pm
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I thought about Estel's post too when I read your post, Freddy. It's incredibly sad how thoughtless and cruel and rude people are to each other, in everyday life, just like that. And, frankly, I'm almost a bit shocked by it sometimes. Not when someone are actively trying to hurt, but when people are just being thoughtless. I mean, really, not saying hurtful things about other people's looks are basic manners. Isn't that about the first thing parents tell their kids when they're old enough to... be rude?

It's sad enough that people think all these things about each other, but for goodness sake, at least learn to shut up!

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Lord_Morningstar
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 10:12 pm
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Dave_LF wrote:
The point has been made academically that female preening is really more about impressing other women (and thereby gaining social status) than it is about impressing men. Several of the comments above are consistent with that. In fact, I might cautiously suggest that in humans, both male and female, displays are aimed primarily at members of the same sex. The thing is, achieving a high rank in the "bachelor(ette) herd" automatically makes you attractive to the opposite sex as well. Biologically, the distinction is fuzzy. Behaviors/smells/appearances that intimidate members of the same sex also attract the opposite.
A number of biologists have suggested that this is like a short-cut to establishing ideal reproductive fitness. For example, in many animals, females will only mate with males capable of holding a territory.
Ara-Anna wrote:
Well I still feel bad for men now that the preening for other men has begun, not in a homosexual way, but the same way women preen for other women. The younger generation of males do preen for each other, and manscape everything.
As Dave_LF points out, technically preening has a long history. Prior to the French Revolution, upper class men often wore extremely elaborate clothes and make-up (which, incidentally, only caught on among modern women following the First World War). What is new is the focus on simple body image.
Feredir wrote:
I have never felt the "need" the be a muscle head. However, I have always been criticized for not being 6' tall.
That’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard :scratch:

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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 11:06 pm
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One need only to travel to Plymouth and Boston to see how much we have changed physically over the years.
Fenway Park opened on or around the day the Titanic sunk and many of those same seats are still there. They are tiny and cramped and set too close together.

Travel to Plimoth Plantation or any of the other historical sights in the area and take a look at the size of the beds.
I don't remember the exact figures, but I think the average male has increased in height by about six inches since the Mayflower landed.

Most of this is due to proseperity allowing us to have better nutrition and abundance of food.

Take that and couple it with Madison Ave, natural selection and voila, you get the whole large built up male image.

It is funny though. Most animals and birds select partners that will insure survival of the species. We seem to want to insure the survival of the ego as well. And we all have egos. It is just a question of degree.

Personally, someone that I am happy with means more to me than any physical attribute possibly could.

As far as females and the whole Madison Ave wardrobes and physiques go though, don't blame us. You gals dress for each other every bit if not more than you do for us. :P
We hardly notice.
True story.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Mon 13 Apr , 2009 11:31 pm
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Some of us realize that. :P

Truth be told, I was never into the preening game. I would feel guilty about that at times because, you know, I could do all that preening crap if I wanted to spend the time and money. I just never wanted to. And then I took a wee tumble off a cliff and walked away (literally). But I smashed my face on the way down and I was left with a broken nose and some very subtle scarring on my face (and some rather rasty scarring on an elbow, but that's not so noticeable).

Very liberating experience, falling off a cliff. I wouldn't recommend it - most people don't get as lucky as I did - but I'm glad it happened to me. Kinda reset my priorities and now I never feel guilty about not wearing make-up or getting my hair done or my lab hands or, in the summer, epic tan lines. I'm still alive, still walking, and screw the rest. The incident in which I picked a fight with a SUV and lost was just another nail in the coffin. I met my mate between the wee tumble and the SUV battle. I met him in a martial arts class. I was not looking or smelling my best and I dumped him on his ass, but he wasn't looking or smelling that hot either and he decked me too. And then offered me a ride home.

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Nin
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Tue 14 Apr , 2009 4:07 pm
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When I left my ex, the one thing, he could not at all understand was, why I left him for someone who was
- older than him
- smaller than him
- heavier than him....

Well, the main answer for me is that it is someone who is smarter than him. And intelligence is highly attractive. You get quickly bored of a pretty face, but a good conversation can last years.

Anyway, I am unlike some of the women here quite into beauty, make-up and dresses. I like to dress beautifully, I enjoy putting on make-up and do take care of my hair, of my weight, I am vain and I do enjoy if people find me pretty.

But then I see my students and how hard it is for those who are outside the beauty range -and teen-agers are cruel! So I tell them: you are beautiful! Yes, you are. You smile, you walk, you talk if you have something to say and if you are yourself, you are beautiful. And .... it's true.
Most of the people enter the "normal" category: they are not stunning, but look normal, the ordinary guy or girl. Some of them are prettier, bigger or heavier, but hardly any person is so pretty that you turn around in the street or so ugly that you look away. Within these norms, it's mainly self-acceptance that makes the difference, I think.

Anyway, I don't like muscles on men that much, but unlike many of you, I do find slim women very attractive. Not skinny to death, but slim and elegant - I also had a look into beauty images through the centuries.... there has always been an ideal of being thin for women, witho ne notable exception the baroque. Look at the Venus de Milo, at Botticelli's Venus at the Medieval madonnas: they are not huge.

Oh, and Fredy, I like bald. Men's hair is overrated!!

I do also think that many things are rejected (like baldness or taking weight or wrinkles) because they are signs of aging and remind that ultimately we will die.

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Jonny
Post subject: Re: Male Body Image
Posted: Tue 14 Apr , 2009 4:34 pm
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Quote:
Looks unnatural, it does
Cause it is :D

What I find interesting is the difference in male body image between straight men and gay men. With gay men (what I've found anyway) the pressure is to be as thin as possible - which is like the pressure that women feel. My question is whether this has to do with differences in the brain between gay men and straight men or differences in society.

I'm sure there are gay men who want to be as beefy as possible, but I've never heard any of my friends say they wish they had more muscles... it's always about dropping percieved fat and weight - and here's the scary part - a lot of times they don't care if its muscle weight they are losing, as long as they are losing it.

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