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Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second

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laureanna
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 1:54 am
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If you do ever get the time, I recommend the masters degree program that I recently completed - a Masters of Strategic Planning for Critical Infrastructures - taught entirely on line by the University of Washington. The Constitutional Issues in Homeland Security was particularly fascinating.

Take a look here: http://www.criticalinfrastructures.wash ... ourses.asp" target="_blank" target="_blank

The cohort of people I took the class with consisted of about half engineers, half National Guard officers. I was, at one point, called a "cave dwelling hypocrite" for my pacifist assertions, but in general, the discussions were very lively and respectful.

The key element I learned from that course of study, and from my half century of life, and from other sources, is that it is best to build a resilient, redundant, flexible infrastructure and society, in which a certain level of disaster can occur without bringing down the whole structure. The other thing I learned is that violence is cheating. Violence is a short cut to get what you want, at the expense of ripping apart the carefully constructed fabric of civilization. It is better to work 10 hours on civilization's fabric than a few minutes in violence to get what you want, because in the end, you'll have a great civilization, not shreds.

Let me give you an example (taken from a recent lecture I heard on non-violence): What if a person came into the room right now with a gun, and threatened to kill everyone? If I just happened to have a gun in the drawer, I could kill him, and save everyone's life, right? That would be the easy, "cheater's" way of solving the Gordian Knot problem. But there is another way. And that's the way I'm taking. I volunteer every week at a crisis hot line. I listen to people who are on the ragged edge and thinking of doing something crazy, and I talk with them as soothingly as I can. I don't know, in the next ten years of volunteering, if I and my fellow workers may avert another Columbine, simply by de-frazzling a person who wants to commit suicide in a dramatic way, or even by helping a mom get psychiatric help before she starts abusing her kid and molding him to be a future torturer of others. It's the long slow way, but it is the only way to build a civilization on a firm foundation.

Another example - I do not know the details on this one, but from what little I heard, the conscientious objectors of WWII were few and far between. They each decided on their own to go to prison rather than go to war because of their convictions. The government put them together (bad idea :P) and they formed a fledgling peace movement. The gov't didnt' know what to do with them, so stuck some of them in prisons, and some of them in insane assylums, where they succeeded in exposing the appalling conditions there and starting the reform of the mental health system and the prison system. Who knows how many lives that saved. You just never know who will be fed by the seeds of integrity that you plant.

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vison
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 2:23 am
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Lurker wrote:
The problem with debating with you is that you are certain that your posts are the only logical ones, that all posts from a different perspective are illogical. I would never ever say that to anybody ever, we're not experts here so how can you conclude that I'm being illogical.
I don't think you're illogical because you have a different perspective. I think you're illogical because your arguments are illogical AND I disagree with you as far as I can figure out what your "perspective" is. It's pretty confusing, being compounded of appeals to raw emotion and straw men pretty much to the exclusion of anything else.
Lurker wrote:
River,
Well good for you that you have time to research it but I for one have no time to sit on the internet just looking for facts just to win a debate. I have a life you know! :)

Vison has posted that I have nothing logical to contribute so just save your breath cause I'm not wasting my time anymore on this thread.
?Then why would you bother? What on earth is the point of just making unsubstantiated assertions and then getting cheezed off when you're called on it?

A list of straw men and appeals to emotion is not an argument. It's, you know, a list of straw men and appeals to emotion. :D

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 5:07 am
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This discussion topic is not disgusting. No discussion about an important issue is disgusting regardless of the participating opinions. We should never assume our values are a foregone conclusion, because then we run the risk of not knowing when they require reworking. A discussion is only disgusting when people stop debating the opposing opinion, and instead debate the person. Isn't that what b77 strives to be above?

Lurker, my comment was about you, but not aimed at you. I am guessing by the emoticon that you understood that.

There is a certain level of primal anger that I have felt when reading about what a criminal has done to a victim. In those instances, I would not be opposed to the same thing being done to that criminal as punishment. I don't support that as a legal philosophy, and any society built on such a foundation cannot survive. Also, I don't want to start a career as this punisher either. I recognize that depending on the circumstances sometimes I consider this kind of punishment because maybe it will teach these criminals about the people they so willingly hurt. Am I a monster for that? I don't act on this, and I don't support this as a governmental practice, so I think I am still just as human as those who pretend, or never have such an anger.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 5:14 am
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[quote="Lurker"]River,
Well good for you that you have time to research it but I for one have no time to sit on the internet just looking for facts just to win a debate. I have a life you know! :) [quote]
Ah, a textbook example of a very lame way to try to shoot someone down. Cover your poor research by claiming you're too busy to do more than talk out of your ass and then try to belittle the better-informed party. I used to do that. Then I realized how rude and pathetic it is. I mean, really, you're trying to belittle me because I kinda sorta studied something of interest to me??

FYI, I have a life too. Not talking out of my ass is part of it. I am also something of a sponge for information. I just soak things up and put the oddments together at leisure. It took me very little conscious effort to do my homework on interrogations. It just sort of happened. Especially since you're not the first and sadly probably not the last person I'm going to be having this miserable argument with. I mean, really, since when was torture a topic of debate? Don't some things just belong in the "bad, don't do this ever, that's for the bad guys" bin?

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Lidless
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 8:42 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Personally, I think the Gitmo suspects should have been forced to read the debates between cg and sf every day. We'd have had bin Laden by now.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 1:02 pm
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But think of the poor translator...

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Lidless
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 1:27 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Meh, collateral damage.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 1:33 pm
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:LMAO: :LMAO: :LMAO:


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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Mon 27 Apr , 2009 8:50 pm
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Lurker wrote:
Sheez, all this political correctness about human rights makes my head spin
From Dick Cheney's brain to your mouth?


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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 12:54 am
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For the record, it's from my brain to my mouth!!!
Dick Cheney can think on his own. I never was one for "group think" mentality. I see this thread has gone downhill. I'll just keep my thoughts or should I say, the "research" I gathered to myself, have fun patting each other on the back. What's a discussion without an opposing view anyways.

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 1:01 am
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There are some things that fall into moral black and white areas. Slavery and pedophilia come to mind. I wouldn't expect very open-minded discussions with supporters of those things. Torture falls into that category for most of us. The IT'S JUST WRONG category. Rational discussions on those subjects are possible but I wouldn't expect to have a nice, calm discussion about why slavery is sometimes okay in most places.


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Lord_Morningstar
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 1:30 am
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I don't see why we shouldn't have a debate on torture - I think it's reasonable to discuss it.

That said, I personally don't believe it's effective enough to be justified (from Wolfie's and River's research). Also, I think this point from Tosh is hugely important:
Quote:
I suppose the argument in favour of torture is that it is effective and a lesser evil than a theoretical loss of life. Well to start with that is the proverbial crock but let us for argument's sake run with it a little.

That ought to mean your local police precinct ought to be able to use it. I mean if someone reports a neighbour for DUI or speeding then some waterboarding will get to the bottom of the matter. Right? I mean DUI or speeding can lead to the loss of innocent lives. That ought to justify it. Is there a flaw in the argument? It could be handy to find out members of extremist groups too. Pick someone up on the fringes of some suspect movement and after a little waterboarding you'll have a list of names. So why not introduce it into Canada straight away? Police clear up rates would rocket upwards.
I cannot see how, as a society, we could be happy with having our own domestic law enforcement agencies having the power to torture us, nor have I ever seen anyone argue that they should (in the last couple of centuries at any rate). Therefore, I cannot see how we justify using torture on anyone else.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 1:53 am
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I agree with you, Yov. Torture is definitely wrong but in this case I see it as necessary evil. It's like when you join a fraternity, there is a so-called "hazing" which is similar to torture, which is outlawed but still practiced as a "rite of passage". People see it as torture, others see it as brotherhood. I just want to present that the argument that this topic is subjective and doesn't necessarily mean that I support torture 100% eventhough my opponents think I do.

It's like child labour, yes, it's bad as seen by people in the west, but if you go to remote place in the world this is a necessary evil because in order for a family not to go hungry even the kids have to work. I will be able to argue this topic from both sides. Does that mean I support child labour 100%?

That's what irks me in this thread is that people assume that if you are on the opposing side you necessarily support it 100% and you feel like the scum of the earth.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 1:55 am
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Perhaps torture falls under the category of necessary evil similar to war. Everyone says end war, but our history as a species says that war is something we just live with. When trying to determine if torture is effective at gathering useful information, the research doesn't lie. If you want useful information about the enemy, hurting some captives just makes people angrier.

I would expect a calm discussion about slavery because that's what people here claim they want--civil discussion. Why should the topic determine the acceptability of the demeanor of the discussion?

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 2:00 am
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
I would expect a calm discussion about slavery because that's what people here claim they want--civil discussion. Why should the topic determine the acceptability of the demeanor of the discussion?
Peaceful, yes. Open-minded? Not so much.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 2:12 am
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yovargas wrote:
TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
I would expect a calm discussion about slavery because that's what people here claim they want--civil discussion. Why should the topic determine the acceptability of the demeanor of the discussion?
Peaceful, yes. Open-minded? Not so much.
I don't expect open-minded, but insult-free, assumption-free, and civil I do expect. You know, all those things that respect people say they want to be treated with. Can't treat other people with respect if they don't do so for you.

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vison
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 4:33 am
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If we are discussing the use of torture as a political/military means of getting information from prisoners, we have masses of evidence showing it is a very poor method of doing so. It is not only not a "necessary evil", it is a waste of time. Information gathered in this way is generally useless and it is a costly method in terms of money and morale. Leaving aside the moral considerations, it's pointless. Putting the moral considerations back in, it's wrong, it's immoral, it's evil. There are many states that use torture routinely - and it seems the US is one of those states. Routinely, but in a perhaps limited fashion, as far as the US is concerned.

The correlation that Lurker makes between "hazing" and torture means what, exactly? To compare torture to child labour? Where is the logic in these comparisons? What rational argument do they forward?

The foolishly naive and simplistic view that torture is a means we must employ to foster "national security" is very common. But common doesn't mean acceptable and it sure as hell doesn't mean "right". For too long we've had this "national security" sword hanging over our head. The words are used to justify torture, to justify spying on innocent citizens, to ignore habeus corpus, to deny people the right to see the charges against them, to have counsel - the list goes on and on. Why would anyone want our free countries to become like the very places that the government claims are trying to destroy us?

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 12:24 pm
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vison wrote:
The correlation that Lurker makes between "hazing" and torture means what, exactly? To compare torture to child labour? Where is the logic in these comparisons? What rational argument do they forward?
Vison,
I'm just presenting an argument that people see things differently, you can't impose your views on me. If you can't understand that, then you are so close minded I can't discuss this with you anymore.

I'm not comparing torture to child labour, where in my argument did I say that? Stop twisting my words for your gain, ok? It is not making any sense expect for your "rah rah minions". What I'm trying to say is, some people see torture as a necessary evil, others like you see it as a human rights violation. Why can't you not understand that? Hazing is torture yet people who join the fraternity thinks it's a "rite of passage". It's like child labour is child abuse, to some people it's way of life.

The problem with you is you are very good at twisting words that makes other posters look stupid or frustrated, that is not healthy for any discussion. You're a Ranger for pete's sake. Respect is earned not imposed. You're just lucky I'm not into flaming except for rooting for the drunken Calgary Flames. What the heck was that hockey game last night?

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 12:32 pm
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This is the second time you're casually compared waterboarding to a fraternity hazing ceremony and a rite of passage. Surely you don't imagine the two are remotely in the same league? What club exactly were the innocent people who were randomly tortured by the Bush administration being inducted into?

As to the "necessary evil" bit; people have repeatedly explained using hard data that torture is not only unnecessary, but also useless and counterproductive. Why do you persist in repeating a defeated argument?


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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 12:50 pm
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Why can't you understand I'm not comparing it. I'm just saying people view things differently what is wrong with that? Stop twisting my words.

I'm done with this discussion. Thank you very much.

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