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Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 1:01 pm
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Here is your exact quote:
Lurker wrote:
What I'm trying to say is, some people see torture as a necessary evil, others like you see it as a human rights violation. Why can't you not understand that? Hazing is torture yet people who join the fraternity thinks it's a "rite of passage".
How are we meant to parse this other than "hazing is torture and hazing is ok, so maybe waterboarding is too"?

Certainly people view things differently. It does not follow that all perspectives are correct. There is room for disagreement on many matters. On the matter of whether a self-professed liberal democracy has any business secretly sweeping people off the streets and torturing them, there is not.


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 1:33 pm
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I have always looked upon fraternity rites as rather crude, barbaric, cruel and primitive. The idea of using their existence to excuse other barbaric procedures is hardly cause to celebrate. When I went to college from 67 - 71, fraternities were at a low period and I thought we had put a nail or two in that coffin. I guess future generations will have to resume that work.

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 2:00 pm
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waterboardseanhannityforcharity.com has an interesting argument to make: H should only get his $x/second if he can make it to the end still believing that waterboarding isn't torture. The twist is that the only way he can quit early is by admitting that the whole thing is, in fact, a form of torture. Are supporters comfortable with this idea, or do you feel that confessions acquired in such a manner might not be reliable?


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Lidless
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 2:16 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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torture:hazing::child labour:asking your kid to do the dishes

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laureanna
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 2:21 pm
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Lurker wrote:
It is not making any sense expect for your "rah rah minions".
OK, I admit it. I'm one of vison's rah rah minions. But I disparaged torture long before I met her.

I think what you are trying to say, Lurker, is:

-"Our" people never torture or terrorize "our" people (except when voluntarily being hazed).

-Sometimes "their" people torture or terrorize "our" people, and that is never justifiable. They should be treated without mercy.

-Sometimes "our" people torture and terrorize "their" people, and that is justifiable.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 2:32 pm
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One of the many reasons I never got into the whole Greek system thing is I think hazing is dumb at best and dangerous and disgusting at its worst (and, in fact, some universities in the US have banned it). Even so, there's an element of consent to it and you can walk away. You may lose your place in the frat or sorority, but you can walk away. Needless to say, prisoners don't have those options.

Dave, I don't think any confession that involves waterboarding is reliable. Especially not a confession that involves waterboarding and a big payoff for the confession. I prefer the approach Christopher Hitchens took: go in voluntarily, do the experiment, draw his conclusions from there.

Last paragraphs of the article:
Christopher Hitchens wrote:
Against it, however, I call as my main witness Mr. Malcolm Nance. Mr. Nance is not what you call a bleeding heart. In fact, speaking of the coronary area, he has said that, in battlefield conditions, he “would personally cut bin Laden’s heart out with a plastic M.R.E. spoon.” He was to the fore on September 11, 2001, dealing with the burning nightmare in the debris of the Pentagon. He has been involved with the sere program since 1997. He speaks Arabic and has been on al-Qaeda’s tail since the early 1990s. His most recent book, The Terrorists of Iraq, is a highly potent analysis both of the jihadist threat in Mesopotamia and of the ways in which we have made its life easier. I passed one of the most dramatic evenings of my life listening to his cold but enraged denunciation of the adoption of waterboarding by the United States.

The argument goes like this:
1. Waterboarding is a deliberate torture technique and has been prosecuted as such by our judicial arm when perpetrated by others.
2. If we allow it and justify it, we cannot complain if it is employed in the future by other regimes on captive U.S. citizens. It is a method of putting American prisoners in harm’s way.
3. It may be a means of extracting information, but it is also a means of extracting junk information. (Mr. Nance told me that he had heard of someone’s being compelled to confess that he was a hermaphrodite. I later had an awful twinge while wondering if I myself could have been “dunked” this far.) To put it briefly, even the C.I.A. sources for the Washington Post story on waterboarding conceded that the information they got out of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was “not all of it reliable.” Just put a pencil line under that last phrase, or commit it to memory.
4. It opens a door that cannot be closed. Once you have posed the notorious “ticking bomb” question, and once you assume that you are in the right, what will you not do? Waterboarding not getting results fast enough? The terrorist’s clock still ticking? Well, then, bring on the thumbscrews and the pincers and the electrodes and the rack.

Masked by these arguments, there lurks another very penetrating point. Nance doubts very much that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed lasted that long under the water treatment (and I am pathetically pleased to hear it). It’s also quite thinkable, if he did, that he was trying to attain martyrdom at our hands. But even if he endured so long, and since the United States has in any case bragged that in fact he did, one of our worst enemies has now become one of the founders of something that will someday disturb your sleep as well as mine. To quote Nance:

Torture advocates hide behind the argument that an open discussion about specific American interrogation techniques will aid the enemy. Yet, convicted Al Qaeda members and innocent captives who were released to their host nations have already debriefed the world through hundreds of interviews, movies and documentaries on exactly what methods they were subjected to and how they endured. Our own missteps have created a cadre of highly experienced lecturers for Al Qaeda’s own virtual sere school for terrorists

Which returns us to my starting point, about the distinction between training for something and training to resist it. One used to be told—and surely with truth—that the lethal fanatics of al-Qaeda were schooled to lie, and instructed to claim that they had been tortured and maltreated whether they had been tortured and maltreated or not. Did we notice what a frontier we had crossed when we admitted and even proclaimed that their stories might in fact be true? I had only a very slight encounter on that frontier, but I still wish that my experience were the only way in which the words “waterboard” and “American” could be mentioned in the same (gasping and sobbing) breath.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 3:03 pm
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Intelligence professionals discount the utility of torture for eliciting useful information as the tortured person is most likely to say whatever the tortured want to hear - whether or not it is true. And the torturer doesn't know if the item is true or false. And if the torturer thinks the true item is false he will keep torturing even though he got the right answer.

There are only use for torture, and that is to force confessions out of people whether or not they are guilty. A few years ago China was quite embarassed as they had procured confessions to murder cases ... and then the murder victims turned up alive and well. Then it can be used as punishment, as in when the Russian Army raped their way across eastern Germany near the end of WWII.

There has never been a real life example of the fameous "ticking time bomb" example.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 3:38 pm
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I agree with C_G here. Many many CIA ect., experts have said that the tortured person gives whatever 'correct' answer regardless of if it is true or not. Even Isreal has cut back on it's torture because it has been wrong too many times. They gone back to good old fashion detective work and have better results.

As I asked before, and I knew the answer, about if all the torture in GITMO had saved one life. Sure Cheney may say it thwarted something, but did the torture save one life....the answer is no.


Real power is having the power to decide life and death and picking life.



And now I will stop reading about Oskar Schindler.

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vison
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 4:23 pm
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Lurker wrote:
vison wrote:
The correlation that Lurker makes between "hazing" and torture means what, exactly? To compare torture to child labour? Where is the logic in these comparisons? What rational argument do they forward?
Vison,
I'm just presenting an argument that people see things differently, you can't impose your views on me. If you can't understand that, then you are so close minded I can't discuss this with you anymore.

I'm not comparing torture to child labour, where in my argument did I say that? Stop twisting my words for your gain, ok? It is not making any sense expect for your "rah rah minions". What I'm trying to say is, some people see torture as a necessary evil, others like you see it as a human rights violation. Why can't you not understand that? Hazing is torture yet people who join the fraternity thinks it's a "rite of passage". It's like child labour is child abuse, to some people it's way of life.

The problem with you is you are very good at twisting words that makes other posters look stupid or frustrated, that is not healthy for any discussion. You're a Ranger for pete's sake. Respect is earned not imposed. You're just lucky I'm not into flaming except for rooting for the drunken Calgary Flames. What the heck was that hockey game last night?
Who's twisting your words? Do you think that your words can't be brought up in a rebuttal? If you want to argue, you better be prepared to have your words come back and bite you in the ass. You're the one bringing fraternity hazing and child labour into the discussion - a discussion of torture. Why would you do that? If you think I can make you look stupid you have a pretty wild idea of my Magic Powers. Most people can look stupid without any help from anyone else.

I think the Toronto Maple Leafs suck the big one. You don't. That's a difference of opinion.


I think torture is wrong. You don't. That's not only a difference of opinion - in this case, you are wrong. You can still think torture is okay and peachy and necessary but you would still be wrong.

I'm not trying to impose my views on you. I believe that is beyond even my Magic Powers. :D

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vison
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 4:26 pm
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Hey, where are all my minions? My house is a mess, my lawn wants cutting very badly, and I could sure use a cup of tea.

Strong tea with milk in it, please. Milk first, then pour the tea in.

Got it?

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 4:34 pm
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You should post that in the Vaoncouver m00t thread.

Don't make me poke you :poke:

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Eruname
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 6:53 pm
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Here ya go:

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 10:13 pm
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Lurker,
I just went and re-read the whole thread and found that pretty much every single point you made was clearly and reasonably countered. As far as I can tell, what you were calling "disrespect" was just a dislike of strong rebuttals you had no response for. On the other hand, you act as if you're frustrated by people not being willing to have a discussion but you've made little to no effort to address the numerous posts pointing out the things that are wrong with what you're saying. But most frustrating to me is that I can't find an actual argument within your posts, though I see lots of red herring and strawmen. The closest to an argument from you seems to be "I don't have any compassion for terrorists" and several variations of "they deserve it". To my ears that translates as your support of government-sponsored vengeance. Without trials or due process, even. That is not a position that deserves any respect, here or anywhere else that wishes to flee from barbarism.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 10:32 pm
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dave, would the opponents of torture be okay with Hannity's confession, or would you find the confession unreliable?

Not speaking as a supporter of torture.

I've never been a fan of fraternities, and generally regard them as buying your friends. I am likable enough to make friends on my own without having to pay dues. I wonder why pledges would go through hazing to make friends, but unless someone gets hurt I just figure let 'em do what they want. I don't want to be hazed, so I never joined, and generally mocked. I wouldn't equate hazing as torture, Lurker, not even as a matter of perspective. Torture is something done to you without choice. Hazing is something you can opt out of, though probably not if you want into the group.

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 10:41 pm
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
dave, would the opponents of torture be okay with Hannity's confession, or would you find the confession unreliable?
I think if Hannity (or pretty much anyone else) were actually subjected to waterboarding, he'd say anything at all to make it stop.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Tue 28 Apr , 2009 11:49 pm
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I think a lot of people would agree to anything to make it end. To think otherwise is naive to the blood lust of other humans.

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Crucifer
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Wed 29 Apr , 2009 12:26 am
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*digression*
Aside from not getting the whole Frat/Sorority thing, could someone please explain Hazing to me?
*/digression*

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Wed 29 Apr , 2009 12:29 am
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vison
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Wed 29 Apr , 2009 2:26 pm
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yovargas wrote:
Lurker,
I just went and re-read the whole thread and found that pretty much every single point you made was clearly and reasonably countered. As far as I can tell, what you were calling "disrespect" was just a dislike of strong rebuttals you had no response for. On the other hand, you act as if you're frustrated by people not being willing to have a discussion but you've made little to no effort to address the numerous posts pointing out the things that are wrong with what you're saying. But most frustrating to me is that I can't find an actual argument within your posts, though I see lots of red herring and strawmen. The closest to an argument from you seems to be "I don't have any compassion for terrorists" and several variations of "they deserve it". To my ears that translates as your support of government-sponsored vengeance. Without trials or due process, even. That is not a position that deserves any respect, here or anywhere else that wishes to flee from barbarism.
Good post, yovargas. Expressed my thoughts exactly!

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Lidless
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Thu 28 May , 2009 6:38 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Olbermann's offer to Hannity off the table
By DAVID BAUDER, AP Television Writer David Bauder, Ap Television Writer – Wed May 27, 7:48 pm ET

NEW YORK – Keith Olbermann's offer for a donation if Sean Hannity undergoes waterboarding is off the table, the money gone instead to radio host Erich "Mancow" Muller's charity of choice after Mancow's disquieting experience with the interrogation technique.

Muller said Wednesday he volunteered to be waterboarded last week to prove that the controversial technique isn't torture. Instead, he said the experience showed he was wrong.

"I thought I was going to die," he said.

Waterboarding has been a hot topic on talk TV and radio the last several weeks. The liberal Olbermann of MSNBC contends it's torture; the conservative Hannity of Fox News Channel says it's not. Olbermann leaped on it when Hannity said on the air last month that he'd be waterboarded for charity.

Muller did it in his Chicago studio last Friday. He said it was worse than drowning, something he nearly experienced as a boy before being rescued. Muller went on Olbermann's MSNBC show Tuesday to talk about his experience, after Olbermann pledged $10,000 to Veterans of Valor, an organization formed by Iraq War veteran Klay South to help injured veterans.

"I was laughing about this, that it was a stupid radio thing," Muller told Olbermann. "I thought I could go 30 seconds. I'll hold my breath. Big deal, they'll sprinkle water. It is a big deal. It's torture."

Muller said Wednesday that he'd have no qualms about seeing waterboarding used if it would protect his young daughters. Whether it should be used by the United States as an interrogation technique is a question he said he'd leave to others.

Muller, a former Fox News Channel contributor, said he talked to his friend Hannity about the experience and had no insights on whether Hannity planned to go through with his offer, or even whether the offer was serious or made in jest during a conversation with Charles Grodin last month on "Hannity." There's no evidence Hannity has spoken publicly about his plans since.

Neither he nor a Fox News spokeswoman immediately replied to requests for comment on Wednesday.

"I don't know how Hannity is rationalizing this, but externally, his inability to live up to his promise pretty much speaks for itself," Olbermann told The Associated Press on Wednesday. "Plus, he is now less informed on the subject of waterboarding than is Erich `Mancow' Muller."

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