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Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 3:30 pm
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Lurker wrote:
Estel wrote:
laureanna wrote:
Some of them feel uncomfortable that all sorts of inhuman things are being done in their name.
I ask you have been a victim of a violent crime, yourself? I applaud people who can say that they are happy to see their perpetrator walking out of jail a free man. It's so easy to say that when you haven't experienced it yourself. Man, the trauma and anguish they've inflicted last years. I understand how the soldiers feel seeing these people just locked up and have no remorse for their fellow human being.
I was molested on and off for two weeks when I was fifteen and raped multiple times when I was in a three and a half year long abusive relationship.

Yes, I HAVE been a victim of violent crime, multiple times, thanks very much. None of the people who did it to me ever saw the inside of a jail, even when I did try to contact the police. I still have kept my humanity.

Does that mean if I got raped again, I wouldn't fight and try to kill the person doing it to me? No. But I wouldn't go around hurting every person with a penis who looked dodgy in case they might, or might know of a plan to do so.

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Torture is justified if it is a form of punishment, IMHO.

Answer: Yes. I would. Give me a logical answer why you wouldn't.
My answer was perfectly logical. But here's a better one for you

Because, on the most basic level, it is wrong.


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Yes, they are humans with no concern for other human beings. I'm sorry I have no compassion for them. They are not the victims here, they are perpetrators. They should be an example to others who want to try and do it again.
You don't know that. You're assuming that every single person who was tortured was guilty. Prove it in a court of law. Follow the Geneva conventions.

Have a sense of human decency.

Just because there are people out there who have lost their sense of decency does not mean that we have to lose our own. We are meant to be civilized. We are meant to be the good guys. Once torture is used, that's gone.


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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 3:40 pm
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This civilian lounging about playing on the internet has edited his post since he has proven his point and would not want to discuss it again.

That's why I said that the soldiers tortured these perpetrators because they know their comrades are being tortured over there, too. You see your friends dying over there, any sane person will do anything to stop it. It will take years before you can forgive them.

Last edited by Lurker on Sun 26 Apr , 2009 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Crucifer
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 4:11 pm
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Quote:
That's why I said that the soldiers tortured these perpetrators because they know their comrades are being tortured over there, too. You see your friends dying over there, any sane person will do anything to stop it. It will take years before you can forgive them.
Hold on, how does torturing one group of people make another group of people stop torturing a third group? This is the petty blood for blood attitude that we in the West supposedly frown down upon. Part of the islamic (and Judao-Christian!) law that should be ignored.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 4:18 pm
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Lurker wrote:
Unless, you've been down the same road......
Been there. (Many times.)
Lurker wrote:
It will take years before you can forgive them.

Done that.





Edit: And what Crucifer said. :)


Edit 2: And I'm so done with this conversation. Forgiving is one thing. Forgetting is harder, and this convo is bringing up some baaaad memories.


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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 4:32 pm
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I was answering Vison, she said I was just a civilian lounging around playing internet. If it's not a personal attack I don't know what it is. She's a ranger, too, right? Just because I'm not in the military I shouldn't be stating my opinion. Why can't we just stop with this "snide comments"? You want me to be civil to perpetrators yet we can't even be civil in a debate.

Estel, I agee with you but sometimes we have to give personal experiences to get our message across.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 4:47 pm
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Crucifer wrote:
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That's why I said that the soldiers tortured these perpetrators because they know their comrades are being tortured over there, too. You see your friends dying over there, any sane person will do anything to stop it. It will take years before you can forgive them.
Hold on, how does torturing one group of people make another group of people stop torturing a third group? This is the petty blood for blood attitude that we in the West supposedly frown down upon. Part of the islamic (and Judao-Christian!) law that should be ignored.
I didn't say it will stop the other group from torturing a third group. What I am trying to say is they can extract information to prevent more bloodshed againts their fellowman. Whether it works or not is yet to be seen. That has always been a military tactic.

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Lidless
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 5:31 pm
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I've never understood the mindset that in order to protect societal values, you have to destroy them.

A society is defined not only by how it treats its criminals, but also by how they treat people that have yet to be proven as criminals.

As you said, Lurker, collateral damage. Only this way round you can hold your head up high - and I don't mean a stress position.

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 6:14 pm
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Collateral damage? Collateral damage? We're talking about real people here, and real suffering. People who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Would you be willing to have your wife tortured in a case of mistaken identity if it makes your country a little more safe? Is that an acceptable price to pay?

Do you have kids? What about them?

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 6:59 pm
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Di of Long Cleeve wrote:
500 years ago it was considered acceptable in my country to torture someone if they were a) a heretic or b) had allegedly plotted against the monarch. I'm pretty damn glad that we've moved on from those times.
You forgot: c) use routinely on all suspects to make them confess to whatever they had been accused of.

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Crucifer
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 7:10 pm
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Lurker wrote:
Crucifer wrote:
Quote:
That's why I said that the soldiers tortured these perpetrators because they know their comrades are being tortured over there, too. You see your friends dying over there, any sane person will do anything to stop it. It will take years before you can forgive them.
Hold on, how does torturing one group of people make another group of people stop torturing a third group? This is the petty blood for blood attitude that we in the West supposedly frown down upon. Part of the islamic (and Judao-Christian!) law that should be ignored.
I didn't say it will stop the other group from torturing a third group. What I am trying to say is they can extract information to prevent more bloodshed againts their fellowman. Whether it works or not is yet to be seen. That has always been a military tactic.

Need I actually say anything?

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 7:24 pm
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Real people are part of collateral damage all the time. If that fact makes you upset, then change species. Become a kangaroo, but remember that kangaroos are also collateral damage at times. We should strive to diminish the collateral damage, but acknowledging this as a fact of life doesn't turn anyone's opinion into justification for torture. Blood for blood is a bad foreign policy, but it is definitely a part of human nature; rising above that is the goal, but falling prey to it only makes you human.

Casting aspirations on another person simply because they said something that irks your sensibilities is another thing that a civilized people should strive to rise above. I'm sure it is frowned upon here at b77.

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 7:53 pm
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I suppose the argument in favour of torture is that it is effective and a lesser evil than a theoretical loss of life. Well to start with that is the proverbial crock but let us for argument's sake run with it a little.

That ought to mean your local police precinct ought to be able to use it. I mean if someone reports a neighbour for DUI or speeding then some waterboarding will get to the bottom of the matter. Right? I mean DUI or speeding can lead to the loss of innocent lives. That ought to justify it. Is there a flaw in the argument? It could be handy to find out members of extremist groups too. Pick someone up on the fringes of some suspect movement and after a little waterboarding you'll have a list of names. So why not introduce it into Canada straight away? Police clear up rates would rocket upwards.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 9:54 pm
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ok Lurker,

Where has the US CIA, FBI or any other US government offical said the water boarding at GITMO has saved one life?

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 10:08 pm
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"Tricky" Dick Cheney, and "The Mastermind" Karl Rove both claim there are documents that show that the "enhanced techniques" have yielded valuable information, but those guys also claimed that Iraq had sought to purchase WMDs.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 12:04 am
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
Casting aspirations on another person simply because they said something that irks your sensibilities is another thing that a civilized people should strive to rise above. I'm sure it is frowned upon here at b77.
Is that comment meant for me? :)
So why can't we have civilized debate then without posters telling me I am "inhumane and just playing on the internet".

Quote:
Collateral damage? Collateral damage? We're talking about real people here, and real suffering. People who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
That's reality, even our in our democratic court system there wiil always be people who are innocent and yet they rot in jail for years forgotten. That's what I mean about collateral damage, no system is perfect.
Quote:
That ought to mean your local police precinct ought to be able to use it. I mean if someone reports a neighbour for DUI or speeding then some waterboarding will get to the bottom of the matter. Right? I mean DUI or speeding can lead to the loss of innocent lives. That ought to justify it. Is there a flaw in the argument? It could be handy to find out members of extremist groups too. Pick someone up on the fringes of some suspect movement and after a little waterboarding you'll have a list of names. So why not introduce it into Canada straight away? Police clear up rates would rocket upwards.
:scratch:
Why would you use waterboarding for a DUI case? Man, you guys twisted my collateral damage example to the extreme now. :LMAO:

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vison
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 12:07 am
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Lurker, you are a civilian lounging about on the internet. So am I. Your opinion is not any more valuable than mine. You have no clue whatsover, not the least jot nor tittle of a clue, as to the possibility that I have been the victim of violent crime. You don't know. You can't know - unless I tell you.

I infer from your posts that you think victimhood gives you the right to be savage, to exact revenge, to indulge your most bestial instincts in the name of that revenge; I infer that you would be willing to torture people yourself - or, in order to keep your hands clean, you want your government to do it for you.

But the thing is, your posts are, IMHO, extremely illogical. You keep bringing straw men into the argument, and you keep making unproven assertions. The weight of evidence in the real world, in real wars, is on the side of "torture is a poor tool for obtaining information". That is a real fact. That is the experience of real soldiers in real situations.

This argument has been carried out on several forums where I post and in each case the fans of torture cannot bring ONE real case to show us that "torture works". Not one. No. They keep bringing up these fanciful scenarios where ONLY by torturing one guy the whole city can be saved!!!! Why the (edited for politeness) heck don't they, you know, call Batman?

If there is a cliche of pained patriotism and/or wronged virtue that you haven't dragged into this, I don't know what it is. But cliches are only good in movies, or in the feverish twitching terror of people who see enemies behind every bush.

I'm kind enough to hope that you never get hauled into custody, suspected of some nameless crime, and turned over to the sort of interrogator you admire.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 12:39 am
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The problem with debating with you is that you are certain that your posts are the only logical ones, that all posts from a different perspective are illogical. I would never ever say that to anybody ever, we're not experts here so how can you conclude that I'm being illogical.

Well, unfortunately, I have important things to do like watching Hockey Night in Canada instead of discussing this thread with people who thinks that I'm an "inhumane human being" just because I have no remorse for people who won't even think of killing another human being and then cry foul when they are subjected to the same torture they've inflicted.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 1:01 am
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Lurker wrote:
Riverthalos wrote:
We pasted SERE training into interrogation protocols. SERE training, which included water-boarding and the like, was designed to help troops withstand conditions they might face if captured by a country that did not follow the Geneva conventions. Moreover, the techniques themselves were designed not to elicit information but to get a false confession. I have to ask, is that productive? If you're hurting someone, or terrifying them, how do you know they're telling you the truth and they aren't just saying what they think you want to hear so you'll stop????
How do you they are designed to elicit false information in the first place? You are not in the military? Sheez, all this political correctness about human rights makes my head spin, the perpetrator is now the victim. If your military undergoes training to withstand torture, I'm pretty sure these people who could easily blow up themselves have similar training. When you join the military or any militant group you already know the consequences of your actions. IMHO, the people that are being tortured have been under military surveillance for a long time.
I did some fucking homework on how interrrogations are/should be done. Try it sometime. It's not that hard. Wolfie posted a whole report back in December. It lays everything out nice and neat, the whole trace of these techniques from SERE to now. And I've talked to people who've been through SERE. And I've listened to trained interrogators talk about their work on NPR. A US Marine, fresh back from Iraq, told me you can't trust anything that's been forced out of someone. You have to bargain, and the bargaining chips need to be something less coercive than pain. "Talk to us and we'll give you <blank>" or "You're in prison. You've got nowhere to go and nothing better to do. Start talking." Etc. You know how we broke our Nazi prisoners during WWII? We played checkers with them. We've gained information from terror suspects that way too.

Our (alleged) respect for human rights is what supposedly makes us better than them. The minute we compromise that, we lose our moral high ground. The US invaded Iraq because Hussein tortured, remember?

This whole argument is disgusting. And ironic. You're a Canadian justifying American crimes. AFAIK, Canada's been obeying the laws of war and has had no attacks on domestic soil to show for it.

TED, I wouldn't trust Cheney even as far as I could throw him. And he's a pretty hefty guy, IIRC, so I'd probably just end up dropping him on my foot.

laureanna, I wish the term "collateral damage" could just be stricken from the lexicon.

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laureanna
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 1:06 am
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Vison sounds immanently logical to me, as does just about everyone else in this thread. I'm still trying to wrap my head around your post, Lurker, especially this part:
Quote:
I have no remorse for people who won't even think of killing another human being and then cry foul when they are subjected to the same torture they've inflicted.
Back to Estel's question:
Estel wrote:
If you knew you could save the lives of a thousand people by torturing one, would you do it?

Answer: No, I wouldn't.

The problem is, you DON'T know. You can never know. You're causing incredible harm to another human being on the chance that you might be able help others. There isn't a guarantee.
Lurker wrote:
Answer: Yes. I would. Give me a logical answer why you wouldn't.
Please help me understand how ruthlessly injuring and terrorizing someone until he screams anything - true or false - is going to give you any usable results.

Help me to understand how stooping to vicious tactics that rip apart the norms of civility are somehow beneficial to the fabric of our society. Do we believe that attacking and terrorizing people is always wrong? Or is it only wrong when "they" are doing it to "us".

Tell me why it is OK, in any situation, to get the roles of judge, jury and executioner mixed up if you are "sure" the guy looks guilty before you start.

And if you can explain that, then perhaps you can explain hockey to me. :scratch:

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sun 26 Apr , 2009 1:14 am
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River,
Well good for you that you have time to research it but I for one have no time to sit on the internet just looking for facts just to win a debate. I have a life you know! :)

Vison has posted that I have nothing logical to contribute so just save your breath cause I'm not wasting my time anymore on this thread.

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