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Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Fri 24 Apr , 2009 4:53 pm
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MSNBC personality Keith Olbermann has offered to take up FOX News personality Sean Hannity on his offer to be waterboarded. Olbermann, who strongly objects to waterboarding as a legitimate means of "enhanced interrogation" says he will pay $1,000.00 for every second Hannity - who supports the technique - can endure the practice.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/hea ... 000-endure" target="_blank" target="_blank

I wonder which network gets the rights to the TV special?

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Fri 24 Apr , 2009 5:57 pm
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That's a very generous offer. Anyone that claims to support waterboarding should be willing to undergo it themselves and not expect to be paid for it.

I have no sympathy or respect for those that support torture.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Fri 24 Apr , 2009 8:15 pm
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I'm waiting with baited breath of him to actually do it :roll:

Torture is never justified. Period. End of story.


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Feredir
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Fri 24 Apr , 2009 11:02 pm
 
 
I've been Tased before......


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Fri 24 Apr , 2009 11:11 pm
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I'd take up that offer. I'd make at least 1000 dollars. I've been hit in the balls before, but I don't support ball hitting.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 3:20 am
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I'd take the offer as well, I'll make at least $1000, desperate times we need to make a little money on the side, right? :heya: I can tolerate pain, ask any doctor I've been to.

Well, I was in the deepest part of the wave pool in the Edmonton Mall, hanging on to one of those inflattable tires, it wasn't around my body, I was actually clinging from the outside since there were five of us holding on to it and when the wave started I was hanging on to dear life for probably 5 mins but it felt like hours and was swallowing a lot of water as well. When I told my friends and I don't know how to swim, they said I was crazy!!! Yup! Why do they think I insisted getting one of those tires... I don't know why I did it. Maybe I don't want to be the only one left on the shore. I've got an earful from Princess when one of my friends told her that during a drunken stage. He can't keep a secret. At least he never told her about the bungee jumping thing.

If it was a needle going through my body, well that will be a different story. :)

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 3:48 am
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When I was learning to SCUBA dive, there were a few exercises that left me in near tears. I'd come back to the lab after the lesson and spend the rest of the day coughing and spitting up water. And this was something I did voluntarily and if I had to bail out of a lesson early because I mentally couldn't take it anymore, the instructor let me. I'd have to go back in for a catch up, but he never made me stay past my breaking point. I had a hard time too - more often than not, I came back from class gaggingl, but more often than not, I also finished the day's lesson.

It's been more than two years and I still sometimes have nightmares about breathing water. I can only begin to imagine what a water-boarding session would be like, when you have no control and the people in power over you want to hurt you (or, if they don't, you believe they do). I don't buy any argument that claims water-boarding is not torture. Nor do I buy any argument that torture is okay.

That said, I'd probably last about ten seconds under water-boarding. My guess is, any of you would do at least as well. Who's first? :P

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 4:23 am
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Ladies first, right? :P

I don't dispute that it is not torture but desperate times call for drastic measures. I don't have any compassion for terrorists. They killed thousands of people, yet the Obama goverment present them as victims. How about the victims of 9/11 how do you think their families feel right now?

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laureanna
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 5:28 am
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Some of them feel uncomfortable that all sorts of inhuman things are being done in their name.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 9:34 am
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laureanna wrote:
Some of them feel uncomfortable that all sorts of inhuman things are being done in their name.
:bow: :bow: :bow:

Thank you


After WWII we threw a large number of Japanese soldiers and prison and executed a few others. Their crime? Water boarding American soldiers.

The problem with torture, is that you never know whether or not it's effective, even after. The person could've just been telling you what they thought you wanted to hear. Either way, by the time you know whether or not it's worked, you've already damned yourself.


No matter what the situation, torture is never justified.



And I know, someone, at some point, is going to ask the most stupid hypothetical question ever, so let me skip right to that.....

If you knew you could save the lives of a thousand people by torturing one, would you do it?


Answer: No, I wouldn't.

The problem is, you DON'T know. You can never know. You're causing incredible harm to another human being on the chance that you might be able help others. There isn't a guarantee.


It's not that these people are enemies, victims, etc. It's that they're HUMAN. Forget that, and you forget your own humanity.


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Jude
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 12:11 pm
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Lurker wrote:
I don't dispute that it is not torture but desperate times call for drastic measures. I don't have any compassion for terrorists.
Do you have any compassion for the innocent people that were arrested on charges of terrorism and tortured?

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 12:30 pm
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Estel wrote:
laureanna wrote:
Some of them feel uncomfortable that all sorts of inhuman things are being done in their name.
I ask you have been a victim of a violent crime, yourself? I applaud people who can say that they are happy to see their perpetrator walking out of jail a free man. It's so easy to say that when you haven't experienced it yourself. Man, the trauma and anguish they've inflicted last years. I understand how the soldiers feel seeing these people just locked up and have no remorse for their fellow human being.


After WWII we threw a large number of Japanese soldiers and prison and executed a few others. Their crime? Water boarding American soldiers.

The problem with torture, is that you never know whether or not it's effective, even after. The person could've just been telling you what they thought you wanted to hear. Either way, by the time you know whether or not it's worked, you've already damned yourself.


No matter what the situation, torture is never justified.


Torture is justified if it is a form of punishment, IMHO.

And I know, someone, at some point, is going to ask the most stupid hypothetical question ever, so let me skip right to that.....

If you knew you could save the lives of a thousand people by torturing one, would you do it?



Answer: Yes. I would. Give me a logical answer why you wouldn't.

The problem is, you DON'T know. You can never know. You're causing incredible harm to another human being on the chance that you might be able help others. There isn't a guarantee.


It's not that these people are enemies, victims, etc. It's that they're HUMAN. Forget that, and you forget your own humanity.


Yes, they are humans with no concern for other human beings. I'm sorry I have no compassion for them. They are not the victims here, they are perpetrators. They should be an example to others who want to try and do it again.

Last edited by Lurker on Sat 25 Apr , 2009 12:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 12:39 pm
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Jude wrote:
Lurker wrote:
I don't dispute that it is not torture but desperate times call for drastic measures. I don't have any compassion for terrorists.
Do you have any compassion for the innocent people that were arrested on charges of terrorism and tortured?
Yes, I do have compassion for the innocent but unfortunately there will always be collateral damage.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 1:14 pm
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We pasted SERE training into interrogation protocols. SERE training, which included water-boarding and the like, was designed to help troops withstand conditions they might face if captured by a country that did not follow the Geneva conventions. Moreover, the techniques themselves were designed not to elicit information but to get a false confession. I have to ask, is that productive? If you're hurting someone, or terrifying them, how do you know they're telling you the truth and they aren't just saying what they think you want to hear so you'll stop?

There're a couple other issues with torturing people, especially in our case. First of all, we're supposed to be better than that. We're trying to justify our war by claiming the moral high ground and you can't do that by torturing prisoners in your power. It's not a question of guilt or innocence. They're in your power. They can't protect themselves. What do you do? Finally, you can't put someone who was water-boarded on trial. Our justice system wouldn't accept their statements as evidence. So not only have you destroyed your moral stance against the terrorist only to gain questionable information, you've also seen to it that the rat bastard never faces justice. How the HELL is any of that acceptable to anyone???

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laureanna
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 2:00 pm
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Lurker wrote:
Yes, I do have compassion for the innocent but unfortunately there will always be collateral damage.
Am I the only one who is chilled out by that statement? :scarey:

The first step to justifying your own inhumane behaviour is to reduce the receiver to something inhuman, like "collateral damage". (Meaning anyone who strikes terror in your heart, whether they've done anything or not.)

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 2:15 pm
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Riverthalos wrote:
We pasted SERE training into interrogation protocols. SERE training, which included water-boarding and the like, was designed to help troops withstand conditions they might face if captured by a country that did not follow the Geneva conventions. Moreover, the techniques themselves were designed not to elicit information but to get a false confession. I have to ask, is that productive? If you're hurting someone, or terrifying them, how do you know they're telling you the truth and they aren't just saying what they think you want to hear so you'll stop????
How do you they are designed to elicit false information in the first place? You are not in the military? Sheez, all this political correctness about human rights makes my head spin, the perpetrator is now the victim. If your military undergoes training to withstand torture, I'm pretty sure these people who could easily blow up themselves have similar training. When you join the military or any militant group you already know the consequences of your actions. IMHO, the people that are being tortured have been under military surveillance for a long time.

Riverthalos wrote:
There're a couple other issues with torturing people, especially in our case. First of all, we're supposed to be better than that. We're trying to justify our war by claiming the moral high ground and you can't do that by torturing prisoners in your power. It's not a question of guilt or innocence. They're in your power. They can't protect themselves. What do you do? Finally, you can't put someone who was water-boarded on trial. Our justice system wouldn't accept their statements as evidence. So not only have you destroyed your moral stance against the terrorist only to gain questionable information, you've also seen to it that the rat bastard never faces justice. How the HELL is any of that acceptable to anyone???
How about the victims? Where is the justice in that? Send these perpetrators back to where they belong where the justice systems is worst that we have here. I'm pretty sure they get a similar treatment under their law there.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 2:24 pm
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laureanna wrote:
Lurker wrote:
Yes, I do have compassion for the innocent but unfortunately there will always be collateral damage.
Am I the only one who is chilled out by that statement? :scarey:

The first step to justifying your own inhumane behaviour is to reduce the receiver to something inhuman, like "collateral damage". (Meaning anyone who strikes terror in your heart, whether they've done anything or not.)
Hey, just because I said that "I am now inhumane", sure! I was just stating what I think is the truth and now, you are attacking my character. Aren't you a ranger yourself? C'mon you are better than that! Sheez, people! Stick to the facts!

There will always be collateral damage in a lot of situations my dear, be it a hostage taking, a hijack and war, let's face it I'm not stating that there should always be collateral damage but even a high speed police chase innocent people get hurt. Does that mean the police should slow down and let the criminal speed away.

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Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 2:43 pm
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Lurker wrote:
I ask you have been a victim of a violent crime, yourself?
I have been a victim of a crime and I would never want the person concerned to be tortured. I want people who attack other people to be arrested, charged and convicted. Not tortured.
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I applaud people who can say that they are happy to see their perpetrator walking out of jail a free man.
That's a straw man. Nobody exists who would be happy to see their abuser walk out of jail. :suspicious: A victim of a serious crime should be able to see their abuser locked up in jail for good or for a long, long time. What does TORTURE have to do with it? Do we want justice, with the weight of due process behind us, or do we just want revenge?
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It's so easy to say that when you haven't experienced it yourself. Man, the trauma and anguish they've inflicted last years. I understand how the soldiers feel seeing these people just locked up and have no remorse for their fellow human being.
Again, I ask, what principles do we believe in? Justice or revenge? I despise people who plot terrible crimes like 9/11 with all my heart but that still doesn't mean I would want them tortured. (How would that make me better than them?) Receiving a life sentence for their appalling crime, good Lord, YES.
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Torture is justified if it is a form of punishment, IMHO.
:Q :Q :Q

It amazes me that people can type such sentiments so calmly.

This is also contradictory. :scratch: I thought the Bush admin justified waterboarding on the grounds it would yield useful information (which to me is a crock from the start, since information gained under torture is hardly reliable). But you say it's OK as a form of punishment as well. :scratch: Forgive me if I say I would run a mile from any regime that thought it was just dandy to torture people as a form of punishment. But that isn't what the Bush administration was about, was it? (Not that I find their actions acceptable).

What kind of torture would you find acceptable, then? Applying electric shocks to someone's genitals? That's a pretty standard practice for those regimes which do such things. If torture is OK with you, now is not the time to be queasy.

500 years ago it was considered acceptable in my country to torture someone if they were a) a heretic or b) had allegedly plotted against the monarch. I'm pretty damn glad that we've moved on from those times.
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Answer: Yes. I would. Give me a logical answer why you wouldn't.
I thought Estel had. :scratch:

In my case, I would not because there is no way I could guarantee the information the tortured person would render was actually reliable. People will say anything if they're being tortured. I'm sure I would. I'm sure I would last under torture for, oh, exactly five minutes.
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Yes, they are humans with no concern for other human beings. I'm sorry I have no compassion for them. They are not the victims here, they are perpetrators. They should be an example to others who want to try and do it again.
I don't have compassion for serial killers either. Such people should be brought to trial under due process and if convicted be locked away for life. But that is very different from wanting them to be tortured.

I completely fail to understand the logic of justifying torture, because to me there is no justification, ever. To me it just comes across as an excuse for visiting extreme violence on people we despise. And we may well despise such people justifiably, if they have committed a horrible crime, but if we believe in ethics and justice and the impartiality of the law, we have no business justifying torture. Once you cross that line, it's a slippery slope.
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There will always be collateral damage in a lot of situations my dear, be it a hostage taking, a hijack and war, let's face it I'm not stating that there should always be collateral damage but even a high speed police chase innocent people get hurt. Does that mean the police should slow down and let the criminal speed away.
Of course not. :scratch: It's the police's job to catch criminals. ;) But how is this a justification for torturing said criminal?

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 2:54 pm
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Quote:
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There will always be collateral damage in a lot of situations my dear, be it a hostage taking, a hijack and war, let's face it I'm not stating that there should always be collateral damage but even a high speed police chase innocent people get hurt. Does that mean the police should slow down and let the criminal speed away.


Of course not. It's the police's job to catch criminals. But how is this a justification for torturing said criminal?
I'm presenting a fact about collateral damage here not torture, thus, the argument about why there will always be collateral damage in any situation.

I do believe prison food is a form of torture as well. Heck, I'd rather die than eat those. :halo:

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vison
Post subject: Re: Waterboarding: $1,000.00 per second
Posted: Sat 25 Apr , 2009 3:00 pm
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Lurker wrote:
Ladies first, right? :P

I don't dispute that it is not torture but desperate times call for drastic measures. I don't have any compassion for terrorists. They killed thousands of people, yet the Obama goverment present them as victims. How about the victims of 9/11 how do you think their families feel right now?
Lurker, your post leaves me disgusted and sad, that a fellow Canadian could be so blind to reality.

Desperate times? What desperate times?

Which terrorists would this be, Lurker? The guys who carried out the 9/11 atrocity died doing it. Pretty hard to waterboard them. And since Mr. Bush gave up the hunt for Osama bin Laden, the planners more or less, you know, got away scot free.

There was a guy on another messageboard who was voluntarily waterboarded - later on I will find his article and post it for your reading enjoyment.

Another volunteer was the journalist Christopher Hitchens. He changed his mind, too, after actually undergoing the experience.

There was a brilliant article posted on Manwe years ago by a man who conducted interrogation of Japanese soldiers and officers in WW II. He opposed the use of torture - not because he was a bleeding heart but because he knew it was useless and also immoral. But then, he was a real soldier in a real war, not a civilian lounging about playing on the internet.

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