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Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection

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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Tue 26 May , 2009 4:57 pm
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ellienor wrote:
RELStuart, it's well and good to be gender and racially neutral when our institutions reflect our society. The current SCOTUS with its predominance of white males does not reflect our society. I don't want old white men deciding these issues--I want a court that reflects all perspectives, all members of the society.

I work in law--I'm a female lawyer--and if you think gender bias is no longer there, I have plenty of ammo stored up for you. :suspicious:
I agree that gender bias exists and does so in the law field. I've worked in the law field myself in one position or another since 2003. And bias based on age or gender is despicible and should be somthing abhorred by all decent folk.

But you outline part of the problem I'm pointing out. You view the Supremes as old white men and you say you don't want them deciding issues for you. The only reason you give is because they are old and white.

Do our institutions have to reflect the colors and ethnic backgroud of our society? Or is it enough that people of good character serve in them? I do not advocate the position that our institutions NOT reflect "all members of society". Frankly that is not a big issue to me. But the supreme court only has nine members. It will never reflect all perspectives or members of society. And that is not their purpose. We have a house of representitives that are elected and should express our members and views of our society based on who we the people choose. The Supreme Court should be made up of the best members of our legal field without reference to the color of their skin or their age. If they are all black, white, Indian, older, or younger no one should give a damn. In a perfect world. :) Which we will never have but we should all work for. :)

Though as a common sense thing I could see having mostly older people. I realize we don't reverre older people like in Asian cultures but they do tend to have accumulated some wisdom and life experience that younger people don't have yet. Not a bad thing for the highest court in the land.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Tue 26 May , 2009 5:27 pm
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RELStuart wrote:
It is not Judge Sotomayer graduate of Harvard and Yale. Or Judge Sotomayer experienced federal Judge. It's Judge Sotomayer, Hispanic! and Female!
This annoys me too, especially since by harping on these two things we lose the reality of the situation you outlined in your first two sentences. I have this horrible, sinking feeling that the opposition is going to start trying to paint this some sort of affirmative action case and the whispers will start that she's only getting it because she's a Hispanic female and it looks good, not because she's a good judge, with the undercurrent that you can't be a Hispanic female AND a good judge at the same time. Which just goes to show how far we've come (she's allowed to exist, after all) and how far we have to go (she ought to be seen as a judge first, everything else second). Is there any reason she can't be portrayed as just being that good? :rage:

Last edited by Riverthalos on Tue 26 May , 2009 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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vison
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Tue 26 May , 2009 5:28 pm
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It isn't that the Republicans were "playing politics", Freddy, but that they played such dreadful politics. Remember Harriet Meirs? There was never a sense that the Bush administration put nation before party, never, not once. That's BAD playing politics. That's partisan bs at its worst.

There is nothing wrong with playing politics, if it's a matter of choosing between qualified people. The US is a political nation - all nations are. This woman is highly qualified, first. Second, she fits the requirements of the Obama administration. Nothing wrong with that.

REL, try to imagine 100 years from now when there might not be a single old white man on the SCOTUS. Does it curl your hair?

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tolkienpurist
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Tue 26 May , 2009 5:37 pm
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Feredir wrote:
So is it the best person for the job or more "win at any cost politics", even if it isn't what's best for the country?


freddy
Er, I think that a highly qualified Second Circuit judge who is a graduate of two of the top schools in the country, and brings a cornucopia of personal and professional experiences to the table is pretty much the "best person for the job." (however "best" is defined - usually all the finalists for SCOTUS will be extremely well qualified to the point where it'd be difficult to state categorically that one was "best")


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ellienor
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Tue 26 May , 2009 5:39 pm
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Quote:
The Supreme Court should be made up of the best members of our legal field without reference to the color of their skin or their age. If they are all black, white, Indian, older, or younger no one should give a damn.
Well, the problem is that there is a pool of qualified jurists available which qualify as the "best members of our legal field." For example, every appellate court judge on the federal level, or even state supreme court justices and/or state appellate court judges, would be arguably a member of the "best members of our legal field." At that point, everyone is so smart and so highly qualified, how do you pick the "best?"

And no, I don't think that a panel of old white men only on SCOTUS would be best for our pluralistic society. If you are a strict constructionist, I guess you want old white men who are closest to the original founders. :) But in fact almost every constitutional issue that comes up to SCOTUS is so far removed from the original historical context, and involves questions that the Founders would have never even dreamed of, that a Court that represents our diverse society is a better bet by a lot than essentially one gender and ethnic group calling all the shots.


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Feredir
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Tue 26 May , 2009 7:23 pm
 
 
tolkienpurist wrote:
Feredir wrote:
So is it the best person for the job or more "win at any cost politics", even if it isn't what's best for the country?


freddy
Er, I think that a highly qualified Second Circuit judge who is a graduate of two of the top schools in the country, and brings a cornucopia of personal and professional experiences to the table is pretty much the "best person for the job." (however "best" is defined - usually all the finalists for SCOTUS will be extremely well qualified to the point where it'd be difficult to state categorically that one was "best")

No, it means she holds the credentials for the position but may not be the best person for the job. I can tell you many people who have hit their pinnacle well below the highest position that could be obtained. Just because someone has experience does not make them the best for the job.

Understand, I am not attacking her in any way. I really am not worried about whom he selects or who gets appointed because there is nothing I can do about. My point is, and continues to be, that SF was pointing out all these reasons the administration has set up the Reps for a fall. In other words, politics.

freddy

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Tue 26 May , 2009 8:44 pm
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I'm sure this process will be as political as the last two were. The Reps tried to set the Dems up for a fall... the problem isn't that each party tries to do this to the other, but that neither can stop because that relies on the other also taking the high road because each party knows that when they are out of power, their opponents will try all they can to marginalize them. That's the worst part of playing politics.

I looked at Sotomayor's record... I'm not convinced she is the best, but let's see what the process reveals. I also disagree with the New Haven case especially in light of her 2001 Berkley statements about gender and ethnicity.
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REL, try to imagine 100 years from now when there might not be a single old white man on the SCOTUS. Does it curl your hair?
Let's hope that all the minorities today remember their struggles, and don't treat the old white men poorly... two wrongs and all.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Tue 26 May , 2009 9:04 pm
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Pretending that politics is not a part of this -either in the choice itself or in the confirmation process is like touring the maternity ward at a hospital and pretending that lusty sex had nothing to do those cute little bundles of joy. Lets be real here.

That does not mean I am saying this is all about politics because that is not my position. But this is a political process. The President and the Senators are political people. The groups who will line up and advocate on either side are there for political purposes. How this plays out over the coming months will have political consequences. Politics is a part of it no matter what anyone wants to believe.

Sonia Sotomayor seems like a very well qualified person for the job she has been nominated for. That is the most important thing. The fact that Barack Obama, Rahm Emanuel and David Axelrod have done it in such a way as to create great political benefits for the Democrats and create great risk and threat of negative political consequences for the Republicans is a stroke of genius.

Is that not the way that all politicians from both parties try to play these things? I detect some resentment against Obama and the Dems simply because they have done it more skillfully than their Republican counterparts. Barring some previously unkonwn bombshell about Sotomayor coming out I do not see how the Dems can lose in this situation. I can see several ways how the Republicans can lose if they make the wrong moves.

This is Washington DC folks. Everyone loves to flip the coin when the rule is "heads I win, tails you lose".

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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Tue 26 May , 2009 9:54 pm
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vison wrote:
REL, try to imagine 100 years from now when there might not be a single old white man on the SCOTUS. Does it curl your hair?
Well, my hair is already curly. :D

But I'm not really concerned about that as much as I am judges that make poor choices. Which has nothing to do with anyones race. :)

And Vison is a perfect example of age bringing great wisdom. :P :hug:

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vison
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Tue 26 May , 2009 11:19 pm
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Your cheque is in the mail. :D

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Wed 27 May , 2009 1:19 am
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sauronsfinger wrote:
like touring the maternity ward at a hospital and pretending that lusty sex had nothing to do those cute little bundles of joy.
That's an awfully optimistic assessment. :P


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Wed 27 May , 2009 3:44 pm
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Well, this move is what I thought Obama would do. He makes a pick where the gender and race of the candidate are primary qualifications, and picks the best among a limited pool. She's been a judge for long enough for us to know a few things about her - such as her belief that the second amendment doesn't apply at any level at any time. But if years on the bench are indicative of qualification then she's qualified.

Nothing special about this appointment, and let's hope there are no supreme court second amendment cases while she's one of the justices.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Wed 27 May , 2009 4:11 pm
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The gender and race of the nominee was an important part of the selection for nearly two long centuries. In fact, few White Males complained when it was their exclusive province. Its amazing how many who benefitted from White Entitlement suddenly want a completely color blind and equal playing field. I wonder why?

Perhaps Sotomayor reads more than just the second part of the Second Amendment? Maybe she reads the entire thing. But what case are you using to justify your comments about this issue? I sure hope its not the silly nunchuks garbage.

Last edited by sauronsfinger on Wed 27 May , 2009 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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vison
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Wed 27 May , 2009 4:14 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
The gender and race of the nominee was an important part of the selection for nearly two long centuries. In fact, few White Males complained when it was their exclusive province. Its amazing how many who benefitted from White Entitlement suddenly want a completely color blind and equal playing field. I wonder why?
Amen.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Wed 27 May , 2009 4:24 pm
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It's amazing how members of the party of racial preferences (and before that the party of racial preferences in the other direction) can say that those who want a color blind society are the actual hidden racists.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Wed 27 May , 2009 4:32 pm
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from CG
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It's amazing how members of the party of racial preferences (and before that the party of racial preferences in the other direction) can say that those who want a color blind society are the actual hidden racists.
Are you admitting yourself as a racist or are you quoting some other member here who called you a racist? You are free to admit what you like about yourself if that is what you are doing. I see nowhere here where any member called you a racist.

And who are these "actual hidden racists" you refer to in your post?

As to the party of racial preferences, a good study of American history and the Nixon administration might open up a few eyes regarding those programs we commonly call affirmative action.

http://www.amazon.com/Richard-Nixon-Ris ... 0742549984" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-20649393.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Richard_ ... vil_rights" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Nixon was a Republican.

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vison
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Wed 27 May , 2009 4:48 pm
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
It's amazing how members of the party of racial preferences (and before that the party of racial preferences in the other direction) can say that those who want a color blind society are the actual hidden racists.
Um, horsefeathers, C_G.

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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Wed 27 May , 2009 5:23 pm
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Frankly both the Democrats and the Repulicans have had members that have said or demonstrated racist beliefs. Trying to say one party is pure is silly.

And the Republicans were very instrumental in the Civil rights movement. In fact without them the Civil rights legislation of the past would not have been passed.

Check this out: http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 5527.shtml" target="_blank

I've read about this before and just picked the first link that sounded like it talked about this.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Wed 27 May , 2009 5:56 pm
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Yeah, that was while the parties were in the midst of flipping. Used to be, the Dems were the conservatives and the GOP the progressives. I can't help but imagine that the politicians of yesteryear would, if they found a time machine, look at the state of affairs now and hit the WTF buzzer.

With regards to race and gender, it's something of an impossible situation. Someone's going to squawk if the nominee's a white male, someone else will squawk if the nominee is not a white male. Granted, if the nominee were a white male we might be hearing more about the actual decisions the nominee made and not about how they're not male and not white, but that just shows how much progress has not been made. Fact of the matter is, unless you were fly on the wall when the decision was made, there's no way to know how much race and gender played into the nomination of Sotomayor and beating on that part of the decision is, to my mind, just laziness and picking at a soft target. After all, it takes absolutely no homework to howl over someone's race or gender - that's planted on their face and all you need is a picture. If you want to cry about her, cry about something she did, not the basics of her biology.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Souter retires - Sonia Sotomayor is selection
Posted: Wed 27 May , 2009 6:01 pm
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from Riverthalos
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Fact of the matter is, unless you were fly on the wall when the decision was made, there's no way to know how much race and gender played into the nomination of Sotomayor and beating on that part of the decision is, to my mind, just laziness and picking at a soft target. After all, it takes absolutely no homework to howl over someone's race or gender - that's planted on their face and all you need is a picture. If you want to cry about her, cry about something she did, not the basics of her biology.
Most excellent observation. Sadly, we have far too many people who make it their role in life to pick at soft targets and ignore the hard work. And then we have too many others who listen to them.

and this from the former Speaker of the House

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... omination/" target="_blank

Gingrich says Sotomayor is a "racist". hmmm. Why is it that the white men who love to scream this stuff are usually conservatives from the Southern part of the nation? I wonder what that is all about?

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