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PostPosted: Tue 09 Jun , 2009 8:36 pm 
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[quote=vision]It makes me inexpressibly sad that some people would see this murderer as an instrument of god's wrath.[/quote]

I agree.

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PostPosted: Tue 09 Jun , 2009 9:35 pm 
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Does the creation of your own god extend to loving all of those that you love?

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PostPosted: Tue 09 Jun , 2009 11:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 12:13 pm 
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vison wrote:
It makes me inexpressibly sad that some people would see this murderer as an instrument of god's wrath.


This practising Christian finds it repulsive and scary.

RELStuart wrote:
I guess the one question this story begs is if it is every appropriate to pray for someone to die? And for those that do not pray would it ever be ok for you to wish someone would die?


I have to admit to asking God one day why he couldn't just take Robert Mugabe out ... :blackeye:

However, Mugabe is one loathsome tyrant among many. Good job I'm not God and running the universe, eh? Deciding who lives and who dies ... not my call. As Gandalf said, in so many words ...

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PostPosted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 11:43 pm 
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"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
— Noam Chomsky

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PostPosted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 11:59 pm 
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Yeah, but freedom of expression doesn't absolve anybody of responsibility once bad shit goes down.

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PostPosted: Thu 11 Jun , 2009 1:59 am 
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I'm not sure it would be freedom of expression if people can be blamed for their words later. People may be weary of speaking their minds.

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PostPosted: Thu 11 Jun , 2009 3:28 am 
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Freedom of expression is great and all, but so often people use it as an excuse for stupidity. That bothers me so much. Just because you can say something doesn't mean you should. Case in point: Rush Limbaugh. He has the right to say "Dr. Tiller the baby killer", okay, okay. Whatever. I'm so glad he's read the First Amendment. But he is a powerful man with tremendous influence, and he knows it. He was well aware that by repeating all this hatred against Dr. Tiller, somebody might take him literally. Is he (or are others who called for Dr. Tiller's murder) legally responsible for Dr. Tiller's death? No. Is he morally responsible? I think so, partially.

The French thinker Simone Weil wrote an essay on the idea of rights, I can't remember now what it's called. She argued that the better man thinks in terms of responsibilities rather than rights. I agree. If you focus on the rights that you believe others must guarantee you, you are bound to think selfishly. It is much better to focus on the responsibilities that you hold to others. Rush Limbaugh is very widespread and influential, and thus must hold a significant amount of responsibility for his words. The same goes for all people in a similar position. A powerful person should use his or her platform to exercise their responsibility, not their rights.

ETA: Weil's word was "obligation", not "responsibility", but I suppose it amounts to the same thing. The essay was in her book The Need For Roots.


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PostPosted: Thu 11 Jun , 2009 5:42 pm 
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Pippin4242 wrote:
Yeah, but freedom of expression doesn't absolve anybody of responsibility once bad shit goes down.

-Pips-


Thomas Jefferson said "The mind alone is free" IIRC. We don't have thought police in this country. You can speak your mind. Even if your mind is full of vapid stupidness you have a right to say what is on your mind. And everyone has a right to ignore you or not.

If someone obliquely influences* someone to do something wrong the person that did the action bears the responsibility because it is up to each individual person to consider information presented to them and decide what response they will have.

We had a man here in the states that got into Islam and through the influence of some radicals go out and killed a Army recruiter and wound another. I haven't heard one word from anyone about the moral responsibility of the teachers he learned his hate from. But there sure is a lot about people like Bill O'Reilly being told they need to take responsibility maybe for indirectly influencing the man that killed Tiller. Is Bill somehow more evil and an easier target? What's up with this?


*an unrelated third party that did not request the criminal action as opposed to someone that directly requested the criminal act be done or a co-conspiritor or assesory to a criminal action.

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PostPosted: Sat 12 Sep , 2009 6:18 pm 
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Police: Shooting suspect offended by anti-abortion material

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Authorities have charged an Owosso, Michigan, man with two counts of first-degree premeditated murder in the Friday shooting deaths of an anti-abortion activist and another man, a prosecutor's office said.

Authorities say the suspect, Harlan James Drake, was offended by anti-abortion material that the activist had displayed across from the school all week.

Drake, 33, is accused of shooting anti-abortion activist Jim Pouillon, 63, and Michael Fuoss, 61, who were killed in separate locations Friday morning, the prosecutor's office in Shiawassee County said.

Authorities also have charged Drake with a felony firearm count and carrying a dangerous weapon with unlawful intent, the prosecutor's office said.

Drake also is suspected of "attempting to locate a third victim without success," the office said.

He was arraigned Friday and is being held without bail, the office said. It was not immediately known whether he had an attorney.

Pouillon, whose anti-abortion activity was well-known in the area, was protesting across the street from Owosso High School about 7:20 a.m. Friday when he was killed by several shots fired from a passing vehicle, Owosso Police Chief Michael Compeau said.

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PostPosted: Sun 13 Sep , 2009 12:32 am 
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I saw that. Terrible. :( Why you would ever KILL someone because they disagreed with your politics is beyond me.


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PostPosted: Sun 13 Sep , 2009 2:14 am 
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It is terrible. :(

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Sep , 2009 12:33 pm 
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There is not (yet) any evidence that he killed him over abortion or politics (at least not that has been made public). Drake shot two people that day, and the other one had no connection to anti-abortion groups or any other political involvement. He was planning to kill a third, also without any obvious political motivation.


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Sep , 2009 1:35 pm 
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Has anyone seen this story on the mainstream news? I'm asking because I haven't, but I don't watch the news very carefully. But, before I make the conclusion that this event was ignored (while the reverse scenario would have been plastered everywhere), I wanted to check to see if I just missed it.

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Sep , 2009 1:53 pm 
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Well; CG's link goes to cnn.com. The AP covered it. Google News brings up stories in all sorts of newspapers. I think the story sort of fizzled out because rather than some sort of political reactionary, Drake looks like someone who just snapped and decided to kill everyone who rubbed him the wrong way.


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Sep , 2009 9:29 pm 
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LalaithUrwen wrote:
Has anyone seen this story on the mainstream news? I'm asking because I haven't, but I don't watch the news very carefully. But, before I make the conclusion that this event was ignored (while the reverse scenario would have been plastered everywhere), I wanted to check to see if I just missed it.


I read it first on CNN.com, it was the front page breaking news story. It was also in my local newspaper, the Denver Post. I think I even saw an article about it on the BBC.

I don't think it's true at all that the reverse scenario would have been "plastered everywhere" while this was ignored. It wasn't ignored, and many abortion-rights activists have been murdered without it being plastered all over the news. Dr. Tiller's murder was covered heavily because he was a physician who actually performed late-term abortions and was famous for doing so.


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PostPosted: Tue 15 Sep , 2009 8:40 pm 
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The news has bigger things to report on, like Kanye West and the fact that he's the king of douche.

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PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep , 2009 1:06 am 
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This is important shit, TED, come on now.

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PostPosted: Sat 19 Sep , 2009 12:31 am 
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Yikes. Pouillon's own son had this to say about him:

Quote:
It will be impossible for some to believe, but my dad really didn't care about aborton.

He did this to stalk, harass, terrorize, scream at, threaten, frighten, and verbally abuse women. He had a pathologic hatred of women: his mom, my mom, everyone.

After my mom finally left him and he lost his favorite punching bag the violence and abuse that was always contained within our 4 walls was unleased on the people of Owosso.

My dad used the pro-life movement and 1st Amendments foundations to defend him, support him, and enable him. He fooled them all.

He was at the high shool because my niece was there, and female family members were always his favorite targets.

Again, my dad didn't care about abortion. He wanted to hurt people, upset people. He enjoyed making people suffer.

His goal was to be shot on a sidewalk. His goal was to make someone so angry, to make them feel so terrorized, to make them feel the only way they could make him stop was to kill him.

His pro-life stance was the most perfect crime I personally know of. He hid behind the 1st Amendment and was allowed to stalk, terrorise, harass, be obsene, ect. These things are crimes. Offending people isn't a crime, and having different political views isn't a crime, but he committed several crimes over the last 20 years and got away with it.

Yes I really am his oldest son. Owosso is now rid of a mad man.


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