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Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church

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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Mon 01 Jun , 2009 11:42 pm
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From olden times people recognized that to kill someone in a place of worship was not only an offense against that person but against whatever religion/god(s) were worshiped there. A shameful thing all the way around. Such things ought not so to be.

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jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 5:39 am
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I think the point I was trying to make is that the procedures involved in abortion are important - and medically necessary at various times - not just for conventional abortions. Many doctors are no longer learning these procedures, for fear of being labeled "abortionists" and perhaps meeting the same fate as Dr. Tiller.

For my D&C, which should be a standard procedure, I had to go out of my own health care area, as no doctor in the hospital where I originally checked in was qualified to do it. This was more than 20 years ago and I don't think it has gotten better.

Removal of a dead fetus, especially at a later stage, is something that no woman should ever have to endure, but some women do. And there must be doctors who know how to do it safely and with a minimum of risk to the mother. Technically, it is still an abortion...a late-term abortion. If late-term abortion is completely outlawed, this would include times when the fetus had already died.

As Lali said, we are not talking about huge numbers here. Are there some women who would have a late-term abortion for "convenience?" Yeah, probably. But in most cases, this is an agonizing decision. The procedure must remain legal and safe.


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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 5:51 am
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I think most people should recognize there is a distinct difference between the removal of a deceased fetus and a viable unborn child. And it's a shame in the former category if there are few doctors that can assist a woman with this issue when it is necessary if the reason is merely they are afraid of an unpleasant label.

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jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 7:24 am
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RELStuart wrote:
I think most people should recognize there is a distinct difference between the removal of a deceased fetus and a viable unborn child. And it's a shame in the former category if there are few doctors that can assist a woman with this issue when it is necessary if the reason is merely they are afraid of an unpleasant label.
Most people should recognize this, yes. The problem is that the procedure is EXACTLY the same. And many doctors are just not being taught the procedure, since it is technically learning how to perform an abortion. It's more than being afraid of an "unpleasant label." It is a highly charged issue and many doctors are simply opting out of it...and many medical schools are no longer teaching it.

Dr. Tiller was one of (I think) only THREE doctors in the country who was certified to perform late-abortion procedures. This would INCLUDE times when the fetus was already dead. It is the SAME procedure.

And, as I said, more and more doctors have not been taught even how to do the procedure involved in an early abortion - a simple D & C, which is something many women need at some time in their reproductive lives for numerous reasons.

Dr. Tiller had bodyguards and prior threats on his life, personal injury and he finally lost his life for performing what is (like it or not) a LEGAL procedure. He was 67 years old.

Many new doctors today just would rather not take that chance.


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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 12:29 pm
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They should, but when and if absolutists set policy, exceptional cases fall by the wayside. Obama opposed a blanket late-term abortion ban for similarly nuanced reasons, and look how the right-to-life leadership reacted to that.


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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 1:22 pm
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We will probably never see this happen but what I would like to see is the Federal courts rule that they should never have gotten involved making a decision on if abortion was right or wrong on tenth amendment grounds (this will never happen). And that individual States would have to pass their own laws about this issue. And what I would like to see then would be States passing laws that say abortions just because a child is unwanted are not legal. I think we should recognize that unborn children are people too. The necessity of abortions for medically necessary reasons are left to be decided by medical personnel. Not lawyers. Not politicians. If someone has to choose decide between a mothers life or a child's, or perhaps there is only one life to save a doctor should be the one making the decision.

Of course this will probably never happen.

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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 1:36 pm
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Jewel, are you sure of your facts regarding doctors and D&Cs? My mom has been an L&D nurse for nearly 30 years, and I've never heard her speak of someone having to go to another hospital to find a doctor who knew how to do a D&C. Or even find another doctor to perform the procedure. If it needed to be done (because of an intrauterine fetal demise (IUFD) or placental complications), then it was done.

I can certainly verify with my mom that that is truly the case and let you guys know.

I agree with REL regarding PETA and almost brought up the same thing. In all of these cases where the procedure involves a living fetus, that is where I can't stand the thought of causing that child pain or harm.

I suppose it is different if the child is already dead, but I do think we're talking about a small portion of an already small number of abortions. I'd consider saying that it was fine to leave it between a doctor and her patient in the case of an IUFD, but it seems like the loopholes are pretty large. If what I've read is true (and I wouldn't swear to it), then Obama wants to open the exclusions to include performing the late-term abortion for the mother's mental health.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 1:51 pm
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This is from the Operation Rescue website.

http://www.operationrescue.org/archives ... -abortion/" target="_blank

On it you will find praise for Bill O'Rielly of FOX News and his endless campaign against Dr. Tiller. Billo the Clown railed against Tiller on 28 different broadcasts. He normally called him "Tiller the Baby Killer".

a sample

Quote:
The tides are turning against abortion rights and George Tiller. Bill Orielly has been doing some hard-hitting segments against him. This is great b/c nobody in the media has ever done this to my knowlege. You never hear Chris Matthews grill Hillary Clinton or Diane Fienstein on the specific evidents that Tiller has aborted thousands of babies and that phony “health” exceptions don’t work.
Do you think BillO even notices the blood dripping from his hands?

Here is the excellent segment by Keith Olbermann of MSNBC last night giving even more information:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af-kE-iu3hg" target="_blank

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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 2:07 pm
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Quote:
Do you think BillO even notices the blood dripping from his hands?
Unless Mr. O'Reilly encouraged a violent response to Mr. Tiller's actions I personally don't think he has blood on his hands. Mere disagreement, even if it is vehement disagreement, does not equal to wishing someone would be murdered.

I loathe Osoma Bin Laden and certainly think of him as a murderer. And most likely unlike Mr. O'Reilly's comments on Mr. Tiller I do hope someone kills Mr. Bin Ladin. But if that happens will I then have blood on my hands for having said this?

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 2:20 pm
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REL .. are you making these statements on a TV broadcast seen by 3 million people each day - many of whom cling to your every word like it is gospel? Are you making these statements 28 individual times over four years to such an audience?

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jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 2:23 pm
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RELStuart wrote:
Of course this will probably never happen.
I hope not. Although I have never had to make the decision, I am a firm advocate for keeping abortion safe and legal.

I would like to see programs put in place to reduce the need for abortion. I also know that even if abortion was made 100% illegal, women would still find a way. The desperation and fear of some women cannot be over-estimated. And they feel this for many reasons...there is no "one-size-fits-all" reason a woman has an abortion.

The women I knew who had chosen a late-term abortion were agonized over this decision. One even tried to convince her doctor that she should continue the pregnancy even though it was slowly killing her. It was too early for the child to survive outside the womb, but late enough so she could already feel it moving. It was horrible for her. Lali, there was no way to "induce labor" and have a living child. I do not know the specifics of the procedure used to terminate the pregnancy.

In an early abortion, the procedure most commonly used is a D & C and many doctors won't do it at all because they don't want to mistakenly perform an abortion. That is the reason the doctor at the hospital gave me for not agreeing to do it, even though it was 99.99% certain the fetus was dead. Conversely, before abortion was legal, women who were well-connected would go in for a D & C as a standard procedure and have the doctor call it necessary for some other reason when what they were actually doing was having an early abortion.

I also know many women who are very much against abortion in principal who have, in fact, had an abortion. Again, the reasons vary. But you know, it's different when it's YOUR abortion.


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Jude
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 2:27 pm
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Did O'Reilly actually call for a violent response against Mr. Tiller?

I'm certainly no fan of O'Reilly ( :thumbsdown ) but railing against somebody is not the same as issuing a fatwah against somebody.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 2:29 pm
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IMHO, the murderer was making a statement that's why he choose to kill him in church. For him it was the perfect venue, if you get my drift.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 3:00 pm
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Murder is murder, be it in you opinion an abortion doctor who provides abortion. Or in this case the man is a murderer and to do it in a church is beyond horrid.

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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 3:14 pm
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jewelsong, I know two people in my office that have has a D&C. One of them had one done last week. They have always spoken of the procedure as commonly available though of course not something every doctor does. One of them has the procedure doen several times because she has fibroid tumors. Perhaps this is a difference in our two countries medical system since it seems to be readily done here without stigma?
Quote:
The women I knew who had chosen a late-term abortion were agonized over this decision. One even tried to convince her doctor that she should continue the pregnancy even though it was slowly killing her. It was too early for the child to survive outside the womb, but late enough so she could already feel it moving. It was horrible for her. Lali, there was no way to "induce labor" and have a living child. I do not know the specifics of the procedure used to terminate the pregnancy.
This a good example of where a doctor should have the ability to do what is needed after discussing the option with the mother without having to have the input of politicians and law makers. This is a medical issue. And of course it has nothing in common with someone that just decides they really don't want to have a child and want an abortion.
Quote:
I would like to see programs put in place to reduce the need for abortion. I also know that even if abortion was made 100% illegal, women would still find a way. The desperation and fear of some women cannot be over-estimated. And they feel this for many reasons...there is no "one-size-fits-all" reason a woman has an abortion.
Very true. Where there is a will a way will be found. But just because people will do some things will not make it right. There are many things that are now illegal that many many people do anyway.



After 6 years we are still discussing the many of the same issues. :cool:

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vison
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 3:50 pm
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REL wrote:
And of course it has nothing in common with someone that just decides they really don't want to have a child and want an abortion.
This "someone" keeps getting dragged into the discussion. Who is "she"? Some people believe "she" is a light-minded and evil trollop who goes about having S*E*X and doesn't want to "pay the penalty". :Q :Q :Q Yes, yes. Having S*E*X is a crime punishable by being forced to bear a child.

That there might be a real "she" who is a light-minded and evil trollop I do not dispute. The world is full of bad people and it is also full of good people who occasionally do bad or stupid things.

The thought of killing a baby is a horrid thought. Only really evil and wicked people could kill a baby.

But we live in a world where babies, and children, and their mothers routinely EVERY DAY, every day of the year, year in, year out, century in, century out, are killed by war and oppression and crappy economic policies and various other perfectly nice reasons. People, you know, are being slaughtered right now as we sit arguing on an internet message board. Real people with hopes and dreams and fears, already born babies are slaughtered like chickens in a coop, children are butchered on roads or have their limbs blown off, mothers are raped to death. Powerful men go on TV and yammer about "security" and "terrorism" "national interest" and all kinds of other crap and lies and we sit back and nod and accept the necessity of these murders - and we get all bent out of shape by the unspeakably evil crime of a woman who has S*E*X and then -- the silly cow doesn't "want" to have the baby. Oh, yes, by all means, force her to bear the child!! The nation is full of kindly people who will snatch the baby from its ghastly wicked mother and bring it up in homes full of love and good food and being taught nice manners and taken to church on Sunday.

What the hell is wrong with this world?

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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 4:07 pm
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I can only point to the stats I posted yesterday. The majority of mothers choosing late-term abortions were not doing it because there was a medical problem with their unborn child or with themselves.

I find your tone completely over the top and not very helpful to a discussion.

Of course, all of the other crimes you describe are terrible, tragic, and horrible. Did anyone here say otherwise?

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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 4:21 pm
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I do want to point out that even women that have abortions because they choose not have a child are not automatically some sort of repulsive evil creature. As jewelsong pointed out usually anyone that has an abortion only makes that choice after agoinizing over it. And there is usally some guilt and wondering about might have been that the woman has to carry with her for the rest of her life. Any abhorrance should be saved for that rare person that may not even exhist that has an abortion for mere convenience sake and feels zero regrets or remorse.

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vison
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 4:28 pm
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LalaithUrwen wrote:
. . . .The majority of mothers choosing late-term abortions were not doing it because there was a medical problem with their unborn child or with themselves.
I doubt that myself, but even if it's true: what does that have to do with you? How is it your concern?

I, personally, am fed up to the back teeth with the hysteria over abortion. Some women have them, their reasons are their own. They are nothing to do with me or anyone else.

Those who think abortion is a crime ought to be putting all their energy and resources into creating a society where no pregnancy is ever unwanted.

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ellienor
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 02 Jun , 2009 4:34 pm
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http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book/ ... =39&page=1" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

This article gives a real life view of a late term abortion. Besides giving an account of one woman with a child having severe and life compromising spina bifida, it states the following:
Quote:
(In fact, Roe v. Wade already protects the rights of a fetus after the point of viability, which occurs sometime after the 24th week of gestation, in the third trimester of pregnancy. Massachusetts bans all abortions at and beyond the 24th week, except to protect the life or health of the mother. Indeed, according to the Massachusetts Department of Public Health, in 2001 there were only 24 abortions after the 24th week, out of a total of 26,293 abortions.)
That is less than 0.1% of all abortions being after the 24th week. So I'm not sure about your statistics, Lali.

More statistics: Those opposed to abortion promote the idea that late-term procedures, after the first 16 weeks, are common and unnecessary. They are neither. Only 3.5% of abortions in the U.S. happen between 16 and 20 weeks and 1.1% happen at 21 weeks or later. (from http://www.examiner.com/x-4079-SF-Sexua ... m-abortion" target="_blank)


Here's another heartbreaking article

http://www.open.salon.com/blog/tre_gibb ... mans_story" target="_blank" target="_blank

This is a deeply Christian mom who had an abortion at 6 months. I think it shows that we have no idea of what these women go through and we ought to MYOB.


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