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Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Fri 05 Jun , 2009 8:59 pm
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I see Dave's point, if this nut job is the only one responsible for his own actions, then why aren't the 911 Terrorists the only one's responsible for their own actions. If this man's terrroristic actions are his alone, and he alone should be held responsible, they why are we going after Al Qaeda? If we using this logic of one is responsible for one's own actions. Or does that only apply to Christian White People who go off the deep in?

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Fri 05 Jun , 2009 9:05 pm
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RELStuart wrote:
So if I go on about how hateful Dick Chaney is, he beleives in torture, big government, taking away prisoner’s rights, subverting the system of justice in America, arrogant, etc, and you get your gun and shoot him down then I am also morally responsible for his death because I told you how morally reprehensible he is? Does this make me akin to Al Qaeda too?
I'm not saying that anyone is akin to Al Qaeda. I'm saying that in the same way that the whole Al Qaeda movement is morally responsible for what happened in 2001, so also is the whole radical anti-abortion movement morally responsible for what happened to Dr. Tiller (and others). And so also will the current radical anti-government movement be responsible should another McVeigh come out of the woodwork.

If you were in the habit of putting up "wanted dead or alive" posters of Dick Cheney and started a whole organization for the purpose of calling him a murderer who deserves to die, and if you got major media voices to say the same thing on the air, and then one day one of your members actually did kill him, then yes; you would bear some moral responsibility for that. If you just argued vehemently against his policies (which is all most anti-abortion people do on their pet issue) it would be a different matter.

Edit: Added rather critical "not"

Last edited by Dave_LF on Mon 08 Jun , 2009 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Fri 05 Jun , 2009 9:42 pm
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Ara-anna wrote:
I see Dave's point, if this nut job is the only one responsible for his own actions, then why aren't the 911 Terrorists the only one's responsible for their own actions. If this man's terrroristic actions are his alone, and he alone should be held responsible, they why are we going after Al Qaeda? If we using this logic of one is responsible for one's own actions. Or does that only apply to Christian White People who go off the deep in?
If Mr. Tiller's killer went and holed up with a bunch of other people and the police showed up and requested that they turn him over and the people he was with refused then the police would be within the bounds of law and right to take him by force. We asked for Bin Ladin to be turned over to us because he and his organiazation within Al Qaeda said he was responsible in the consiracy and terrorist attack of 9/11 and Al Qaeda told us to go fish. So we were within the bounds of law and morality to go after Mr. Bin Ladin and his organization that was and is activly protecting him.

If Mr. Tiller's killer was part of a group of people planning or supporting the attack they would all also be guilty of crimes.

If I argue that Mr. Chaney is horrible and reprehensible but never say he ought to be murdered or any such thing and then someone does kill him I should be free of any moral responsibility for his murder. Verbalizing my dislike and talking about what a wretched person someone is not the same as encouraging people to kill someone. Most pro-life people are free from any guilt when it comes to Mr. Tiller's murder. Anyone that assisted the killer with the aim of killing Tiller would be an assesory to the end crime and could also be charged with a conspiracy charge.

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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Fri 05 Jun , 2009 9:44 pm
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Dave_LF wrote:

If you were in the habit of putting up "wanted dead or alive" posters of Dick Cheney and started a whole organization for the purpose of calling him a murderer who deserves to die, and if you got major media voices to say the same thing on the air, and then one day one of your members actually did kill him, then yes; you would bear some moral responsibility for that. If you just argued vehemently against his policies (which is all most anti-abortion people do on their pet issue) it would be a different matter.
I agree.

Also apparently it is very unlikely that Mr. Tiller's murderer could be sentenced to death for the premeditated cold blooded killing according to this article.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/06/05/abs ... -eligible/" target="_blank

So if found guilty as a punishment he will have to spend many many years in jail with three square meals a day, all medical expenses paid, and tv. (I'm not saying prison is a great place. Just that the punishment does not fit the crime.) What a shame.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Fri 05 Jun , 2009 10:15 pm
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Rel,

I agree people not connected to Mr. Tiller's murderer should not be held responsible. But what I am saying is that hate (no matter what religion) always breeds hate. Dressing it up in whatever brand of religion doesn't make it any less hate. And it is my opinion that there is a very hateful, all-be-it small, group of 'Christians' that are on the same level as Al Qeada. And no they are not Christians in any sense of the word. Same as Al Qeada are not real Muslims.

They take bits and pieces of what they 'know' is the real word of God and twist it to the point of murder.

As for Christ, he would say....and this is well documented...He is without Sin let him cast the first stone.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Fri 05 Jun , 2009 10:28 pm
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REL, you're safe if you just want to vehemently disagree with Dick Cheney, even if someone guns him down. It may have nothing to do with those who share your feelings. Unknown to himself, some group of lawyers may be getting Dick back for what happened on that hunting trip.

Keith Olberman took his usual melodramatic road in accusing Bill O'Reilly in helping to create the hateful culture that persuades people to murder in the name of abortion. I'm no fan of O'Reilly, and I certainly wouldn't take a phone call from him, but the culture of hate existed prior to Bill-O's taking the microphone. Olberman has a flair for the dramatic.

A useful little tactic here may be to define the terms that are in question. What is a baby? What is a fetus? When does one evolve into the other?

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Fri 05 Jun , 2009 11:52 pm
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RELStuart wrote:
If I argue that Mr. Chaney is horrible and reprehensible but never say he ought to be murdered or any such thing and then someone does kill him I should be free of any moral responsibility for his murder. Verbalizing my dislike and talking about what a wretched person someone is not the same as encouraging people to kill someone. Most pro-life people are free from any guilt when it comes to Mr. Tiller's murder. Anyone that assisted the killer with the aim of killing Tiller would be an assesory to the end crime and could also be charged with a conspiracy charge.

:yes:


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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Sat 06 Jun , 2009 1:19 am
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I think most pro-life people certainly are free of any guilt whatsoever in Dr. Tiller's murder. Because most pro-life people are reasonable human beings and aren't calling for the murder of anyone. It's one thing to vehemently disagree with something, it's another to vehemently disagree with something and wish death upon anyone who supports it. I don't think anyone is arguing that it's the entire pro-life community that is responsible for Dr. Tiller's murder. But the responsibility does not solely lie with the killer. That's not to say that he's any less responsible for this murder than he would be if he committed any non-political murder, but there are others who deserve blame--namely, those who called for Dr. Tiller's murder in the first place.


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Lidless
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Sat 06 Jun , 2009 8:24 am
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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Sun 07 Jun , 2009 11:32 am
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It is worth noting that if indeed Fox News personality Bill O'Reilly did nothing wrong in this case and bears no share of any responsibility then why is he repeatedly lying about the role he played? Why is he attempting to sanitize and outright change the record? This from bradblog.com
Quote:
In his June 3 column about the murder of Kansas abortion provider George Tiller, Bill O'Reilly again falsely claimed that he had only "reported" anti-abortion groups referring to Tiller as "Tiller the baby killer." In fact, O'Reilly himself has repeatedly referred to Tiller that way.

O'Reilly wrote that "far-left loons ... immediately blamed me and Fox News for inciting Tiller's killer. Even though I reported on the doctor honestly, the loons asserted that my analysis of him was 'hateful.' " O'Reilly continued: "Chief of among the complaints was the doctor's nickname, 'Tiller the baby killer.' Some pro-lifers branded him with that, and I reported it. So did hundreds of other news sources." However, O'Reilly has not only "reported" on the term's usage by "pro-lifers," but he has adopted it himself, repeatedly referring to Tiller as "the baby killer" on his Fox News show:

On the May 15 edition of The O'Reilly Factor, O'Reilly stated that Kathleen Sebelius, who was then the governor of Kansas and is now secretary of health and human services, "is the most pro-abortion governor in the United States. Based upon Dr. Tiller, the baby killer in her state, and all of that. All right? So there's no doubt."
On the May 11 edition of The O'Reilly Factor, O'Reilly said Sebelius "is pro-abortion. She wants the babies done for. This is --- she supported Tiller the baby killer out there."

On the April 27 edition of The O'Reilly Factor, O'Reilly said that Sebelius "recently vetoed a bill that placed restrictions on late-term abortions in Kansas. The bill was
introduced because of the notorious Tiller the baby killer case, where Dr. George Tiller destroys fetuses for just about any reason right up until the birth date for $5,000."

On the April 3 edition of The O'Reilly Factor, O'Reilly said, "Tiller got acquitted in Kansas, Tiller the baby killer."

On the March 27 edition of The O'Reilly Factor, O'Reilly stated: "Now, we have bad news to report, that Tiller the baby killer out in Kansas --- acquitted. Acquitted today of murdering babies. I wasn't in the courtroom. I didn't sit on the jury. But there's got to be a special place in hell for this guy."

As Media Matters for America noted, since Tiller was shot to death on May 31, O'Reilly has attributed the term to others and claimed he only "reported" it. For instance, on the June 2 edition of The O'Reilly Factor, O'Reilly read an email from a viewer who asked, "Mr. O'Reilly, how can you be sure that reciting 'Tiller the baby killer' over and over again did not inflame the assassin?" O'Reilly responded, "The doctor was involved in a criminal case. I reported what groups were calling him. I reported accurately." Similarly, on the June 1 edition of his program, O'Reilly stated that Tiller was "nicknamed 'The Baby Killer' by pro-life groups."
If he did nothing wrongto contribute to the atmosphere of hate that propels such actions, why is there a need to lie about his involvement?

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Sun 07 Jun , 2009 1:39 pm
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Cowardice?

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Sun 07 Jun , 2009 2:51 pm
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O'Reilly is a brave prophet who just happens to only speak from the echo chamber of Fox News. :roll:

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 09 Jun , 2009 3:00 pm
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Well, here's a disturbing article:

Pastor Drake’s Latest Death Prayers

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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 09 Jun , 2009 3:54 pm
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Jude wrote:
Well, here's a disturbing article:

Pastor Drake’s Latest Death Prayers
:Q

Though I would point out he said:
Quote:
Drake said he didn't pray for Tiller to be murdered -- only that God would take his life by some method -- ]
Source story here: http://www.abpnews.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=53" target="_blank" target="_blank


And I am pleased to see that Baptists are publishing this material and not just sweeping this chap under the rug. That would be what I would be tempted to do. And they do point out that this guy is not mainstream by any means.

I guess the one question this story begs is if it is every appropriate to pray for someone to die? And for those that do not pray would it ever be ok for you to wish someone would die?

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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 09 Jun , 2009 4:35 pm
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Quote:
Sing Oldham, vice president for convention relations with the SBC Executive Committee, was unavailable for comment until late on May 4.

He said that while Drake served one year as second vice president of the SBC, he is not now nor has ever been a spokesman for the convention.

"Mr. Drake does not represent Southern Baptist actions, resolutions, or positions in his interpretation and application of 'imprecatory prayers,'" Oldham said. "Any comments made by Wiley Drake on this subject represent his personal views, not those of the Convention."

Oldham said most Baptists view the imprecatory prayers found in the Psalms as private, heartfelt conversations between oppressed people and God, and reflect confidence that God will eventually vindicate the innocent. He said they generally close with a conscious decision not to bear malice and leave final judgment up to God.

"I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of Southern Baptists reject any call to pray imprecatory prayers of death over any individual," he said.

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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 09 Jun , 2009 5:27 pm
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A friend of mine had a really good quote... "When you find that God hates all the people you hate... it's likely you've created your own God"

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 09 Jun , 2009 5:41 pm
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That's a good quote - did your friend make it up?

Regarding this Drake guy, I realize he isn't representative of all baptists, any more than Kathleen Battleaxe is representative of all singers. :D

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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 09 Jun , 2009 6:00 pm
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I'm not sure. I googled it and didn't see it anywhere so I guess it is possible. :)

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vison
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 09 Jun , 2009 6:37 pm
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It makes me inexpressibly sad that some people would see this murderer as an instrument of god's wrath. What a vile concept they have of a god.

The public figures who gloated over his death are complicit in it, as far as I'm concerned. They help create an atmosphere of such hatred and unreason that it is no wonder some unhinged and monstrous killer takes their rhetoric as a license.

It's been said above: if we are free to blame Muslim preachers as being, in part, responsible for Islamist terrorism, then these Christian preachers are as much to blame for the doctor's murder.

"Vengeance is mine" saith the Lord. I hope so, because He's gotta be getting pretty cheezed off.

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
Posted: Tue 09 Jun , 2009 8:04 pm
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The quote is a variation on a line from Anne Lamott's book "Traveling Mercies: Some Thoughts on Faith".

"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."

Wikipedia says she attributes it to a friend who was a priest.


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