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If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P

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Nin
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 6:47 pm
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Di of Long Cleeve wrote:
Which is why we are nowhere near a Germany-in-the-1930s analogy. The trouble with the Nazis is that they actually rebuilt Germany's infrastructure -- that's why they rose to power, people saw them doing something positive and concrete to restore Germany's national pride and just chose to ignore that little anti-Semitic agenda. :Q :(

That is historically extrememly simplified, if not wrong. First, the Nazis rose to power after a lost war and very humiliating peace treaty, which is not true for GB, and was vital in the elctions of 1932 an dthe years before. Second, the so-called rise of the German economy which the Nazis suceeded during the fist six years of their Reich was only possible because a war came after it. The reconstruction of the infrastructure was a direct preparation of war and paid by the gains of war and slave labour for the enterprises who had lent money to Hitler between 1933 and 1939. So, if any party pursues on this economical way, it leads to an economy which needs a war.

Switzerland has very, very low unemployement rates. (I think it's 3.5%). But still in some sections, there is not a single Swiss working, like construction or also some sections of healthcare. Not only, because it's underqualified jobs, but also because they would not work for this salary - even though you can live on it... so then if you were an employer whom would you hire?

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 8:01 pm
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Quote:
Again, I don't think one past member being a terrorist automatically makes everyone else a bad person. Decent enough people can be misguided, as I have been many times! It doesn't mean I'm saying they are mainly decent people either - but it doesn't sound like BNP members being terrorists is yet a recurring pattern, unless there are others cases besides this one?

You have said a few times now that Griffin sounds a reasonable person in broadcasts. Well that is Griffin's whole strategy. A few warm words from a nazi and suddenly people give him the benefit of the doubt. Oh dear.


I'm not certain how much evidence you want but here is some more.

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/the-real- ... -links.php" target="_blank" target="_blank

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Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 8:01 pm
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
Again, I don't think one past member being a terrorist automatically makes everyone else a bad person. Decent enough people can be misguided, as I have been many times! It doesn't mean I'm saying they are mainly decent people either - but it doesn't sound like BNP members being terrorists is yet a recurring pattern, unless there are others cases besides this one?
Even if none of these people had ever been involved in terrorism, that in no way detracts from the repugnant nature of their racist views.

I am not interested in how nasty these individuals are personally. The issue is their racism. Nick Griffin and his fellow members belong to a racist party, they have racist views and as such their party merits no respect, no consideration and no vote. They are legal, but just about, since it‘s not actually illegal to have racist opinions, whereas it is illegal to promote racial hatred. They are borderline. They know it, and everybody else knows it too. It is deeply shaming to our nation that they have been voted in.

I think I'm done here. :)

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Iavas_Saar
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 10:03 pm
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Quote:
You have said a few times now that Griffin sounds a reasonable person in broadcasts. Well that is Griffin's whole strategy. A few warm words from a nazi and suddenly people give him the benefit of the doubt. Oh dear.

I'm not certain how much evidence you want but here is some more.

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/the-real-" target="_blank ... -links.php
This is starting to make me wonder why BBC Radio would allow Nick Griffin air time and the opportunity to sound reasonable. On two occasions recently. As I've said, that was my initial impression, not knowing much else about them, and I wonder if others too lazy to talk about it further or do research might have gone on to vote. So a question to you all, are you disappointed at all in the BBC for even considering an interview?

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Even if none of these people had ever been involved in terrorism, that in no way detracts from the repugnant nature of their racist views.
I do get that. I just wonder if most of them might also genuinely care about preserving British culture, and love their country. Or is it 100% a facade.
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It is deeply shaming to our nation that they have been voted in.
Despite similar parties in other EU nations gaining ground?

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 10:15 pm
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Quote:
are you disappointed at all in the BBC for even considering an interview?
I think apoplectic is a better fit than disappointed in my particular case. I even heard a BBC Radio 4 presenter chiding some young woman for being in a group that threw eggs at Griffin and his bunch outside Parliament! I mean what is the proper response to being faced with nazis? Mutter disapprovingly under ones breath?

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Iavas_Saar
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 10:30 pm
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You have to admit though that those having eggs thrown at them are never viewed less sympathetically as a result of the act, if anything they gain from the protestors releasing anger in that way, so it should be advised against.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 10:48 pm
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Eggs? How passe. She should have thrown shoes. =:)
Iavas_Saar wrote:
Quote:
It is deeply shaming to our nation that they have been voted in.
Despite similar parties in other EU nations gaining ground?
Shame's on them too then. Popular ideas aren't necessarily good ones. Ethnic-cleansing and nationalism have been around for a long time. Every now and then, someone manages to sell it to a nation as a whole. We saw how that turned out in the Balkans in the 1990's as Yugoslavia broke apart and Serbs, Croats, and Bosnians started expelling each other from their respective territories (it didn't help that no one could agree on what exactly those territories were). Going back further in time, fascism got popular in the 1930's. Communism was also popular for a much longer stretch of time. I think history is a judge of both.

Europe's got some hard questions it needs to ask itself. Some very hard ones. And Europe needs to start looking for answers that aren't repeats of past mistakes.

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Iavas_Saar
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 10:54 pm
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When I read the BNP's policies, it's a shame they have the dark side that people have posted about, because I agree with the essence of most of them:
Quote:
IMMIGRATION - time to say ENOUGH!

On current demographic trends, we, the native British people, will be an ethnic minority in our own country within sixty years.

To ensure that this does not happen, and that the British people retain their homeland and identity, we call for an immediate halt to all further immigration, the immediate deportation of criminal and illegal immigrants, and the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question.

We will abolish the ‘positive discrimination’ schemes that have made white Britons second-class citizens. We will also clamp down on the flood of ‘asylum seekers’, all of whom are either bogus or can find refuge much nearer their home countries.

EUROPE - back to British independence!

We are opposed to the Single European Currency, and support the overwhelming majority of the British people in their desire to keep the Pound and our traditional weights and measures. At the same time, we are for the best possible relationship with our European neighbours and believe that the nations of Europe should be free to trade and cooperate whenever it is mutually beneficial, though without being forced into a political and economic straitjacket - political unification. Accordingly, we stand for British withdrawal from the European Union. In place of the EU, we intend to aim towards greater national self-sufficiency, and to work to restore Britain’s family and trading ties with Australia, Canada and New Zealand, and to trade with the rest of the world as it suits us. Following our withdrawal from the EU, the BNP will use the £43 million per day net contribution Britain at present makes to the European Union to fund many far more useful projects at home.

LAW AND ORDER - crack down on crime!

The BNP will crack down on crime and restore public safety and confidence. We will free the police and courts from the politically correct straitjacket that is stopping them from doing their job properly. The liberal fixation with the ‘rights’ of criminals must be replaced by concern for the rights of victims, and the right of innocent people not to become victims. We support the re-introduction of corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals, and the restoration of capital punishment for paedophiles, terrorists and murderers as an option for judges in cases where their guilt is proven beyond dispute, as by DNA evidence or being caught red-handed.

ECONOMY - British workers first!

Globalisation, with its export of jobs to the Third World, is bringing ruin and unemployment to British industries and the communities that depend on them. Accordingly, the BNP calls for the selective exclusion of foreign-made goods from British markets and the reduction of foreign imports. We will ensure that our manufactured goods are, wherever possible, produced in British factories, employing British workers. When this is done, unemployment in this country will be brought to an end, and secure, well-paid employment will flourish, at last getting our people back to work and ending the waste and injustice of having more than 4 million people in a hidden army of the unemployed concealed by Labour’s statistical fiddles. We further believe that British industry, commerce, land and other economic and natural assets belong in the final analysis to the British nation and people. To that end we will restore our economy and land to British ownership. We also call for preference in the job market to be given to native Britons. We will take active steps to break up the socially, economically and politically damaging monopolies now being established by the supermarket giants. Finally we will seek to give British workers a stake in the success and prosperity of the enterprises whose profits their labour creates by encouraging worker shareholder and co-operative schemes

EDUCATION - discipline, standards, achievement!

We are against the ‘trendy’ teaching methods that have made Britain one of the most poorly educated nations in Europe. We will end the practice of politically correct indoctrination in all its guises and we will restore discipline in the classroom, give authority back to teachers and put far greater emphasis on training young people in the industrial and technological skills necessary in the modern world. We will also seek to instill in our young people knowledge of and pride in the history, cultures and heritage of the native peoples of Britain.

AGRICULTURE - quality before quantity!

We see a strong, healthy agriculture sector as vital to the country. Britain’s farming industry will be encouraged to produce a much greater part of the nation’s need in food products. Priority will be switched from quantity to quality, as we move from competing in a global economy to maximum self-sufficiency for Britain. We will ensure a major shift to healthier and more sustainable organic farming. We are pledged to ensure the restoration of Britain’s once great fishing industry with the reimposition of the former exclusion zones around our coast.

HEALTH - first-class healthcare for all!

We are wholly committed to a free, fully funded National Health Service for all British citizens. We will revitalise the Health Service by boosting staff and bed numbers, slashing unnecessary bureaucracy and by addressing the root cause of low recruitment and retention - low pay. We will see to it that no money is given in foreign aid while our own hospitals are short of beds and the staff to run them. More emphasis must be placed on healthy living with greater understanding of sickness prevention through physical exercise, a healthier environment and improved diets.

TRANSPORT - time to invest!

Increased investment is needed in Britain’s public transport system to bring it up to the highest standards in the world. The fiasco of rail privatisation with different companies running services and track leading to higher fares and lower safety also needs to be resolved. Congestion of our towns and cities must be eased by the provision of greater incentives to use rail and bus transport instead of private cars. The first step is to end the crime and squalor that puts so many people off public transport. Motorists must not be made the scapegoats for government failure. Fuel tax should be cut, motorway speed limits raised, and hidden speed cameras should be banned. Far more must be done to encourage the development and use of cleaner fuels.

ENVIRONMENT - a cleaner, greener future!

Our ideal for Britain is that of a clean, beautiful country, free of pollution in all its forms. We will enforce standards to curb those practices, whether by business or the individual, which cause environmental damage. “The polluter pays to clean up the mess” must become a fact of life, not an electioneering slogan. In towns we would work to replace the brutalist modernism of 1960s-style-architecture with a blend of traditional local styles and materials and ensure that developments take place on a more human scale.

FOREIGN AID - time to spend our money on our own people!

We reject the idea that Britain must forever be obliged to subsidise the incompetence and corruption of Third World states by supplying them with financial aid. We will link foreign aid with our voluntary resettlement policy, whereby those nations taking significant numbers of people back to their homelands will need cash to help absorb those returning. The billions of pounds saved every year by this policy will also be reallocated to vital services in Britain.

PENSIONERS - pensioners before asylum seekers!

The conditions in which many of Britain’s old people are forced to live are a national disgrace. We are pledged to ensure that all our old folk are able to live in comfortable homes, and will restore the earnings link with pensions. Elderly people who have paid a lifetime of taxes and reared families should not have to sell their homes to pay for care.

NORTHERN IRELAND - an end to sectarianism!

Britain has shamefully allowed the terrorists in N.I. to come close to winning when the IRA could have been destroyed years ago. Government weakness has led to hundreds of deaths and given those same terrorists a share in government. We would end all attempts to force the people of Northern Ireland to accept foreign interference in their affairs and deal with terrorism - from whatever side - once and for all. No one with links to a terrorist organisation that refuses to lay down its arms should be allowed to enter government. We would abolish state-supported segregation in education. In the long run, we wish to end the conflict in Ireland by welcoming Eire as well as Ulster as equal partners in a federation of the nations of the British Isles.

DEFENCE - no more cuts!

Successive cuts in defence spending have left Britain’s armed forces perilously weak. We will boost Britain’s armed forces to ensure that they are able to deal with any emergency, and defend our homeland and our independence. We will bring our troops back from Germany and withdraw from NATO, since recent political developments make both commitments obsolete. We will close all foreign military bases on British soil, and refuse to risk British lives in meddling ‘peace-keeping’ missions in parts of the world where no British interests are at stake - a position of armed neutrality. We will also restore national service for our young with the option of civil or military service.

FOREIGN AFFAIRS - Britain’s interests first!

Britain’s foreign relations should be determined by the protection of our own national interest and not by our like or dislike of other nations’ internal politics. We would have no quarrel with any nation that does not threaten British interests. We will maintain an independent foreign policy of our own, and not a spineless subservience to the USA, the ‘international community’, or any other country.

DEMOCRACY - letting the people decide!

The British people invented modern Parliamentary democracy. Yet in recent years the British people have been denied their democratic rights. On issue after issue, the views of the majority of British people have been ignored and overridden by a Politically Correct ‘elite’ which thinks it knows best. On immigration, on Capital Punishment, on the surrender of British sovereignty to the EU and in numerous other areas, democracy has been absent as Labour, Tories and Lib-Dems conspire in election after election to offer the British people no real choice on such vital issues. The BNP exists to give the British people, that choice, and thus to restore and defend the basic democratic rights we have all been denied. We favour more democracy, not less, not just at national but at regional and local level.

Power should be devolved to the lowest level possible so that local communities can make decisions which affect them. We will remove legal curbs on freedom of speech imposed by successive Governments over the last 40 years. We will implement a Bill of Rights guaranteeing fundamental freedoms to the British people. We will ensure that ordinary British people have real democratic power over their own lives and that Government, local and national, is truly accountable to the people who elect it.

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Pippin4242
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 10:58 pm
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Quote:
FOREIGN AID - time to spend our money on our own people!

We reject the idea that Britain must forever be obliged to subsidise the incompetence and corruption of Third World states by supplying them with financial aid. We will link foreign aid with our voluntary resettlement policy, whereby those nations taking significant numbers of people back to their homelands will need cash to help absorb those returning. The billions of pounds saved every year by this policy will also be reallocated to vital services in Britain.
Three words.

Fuck. That. Shit.

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vison
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 11:42 pm
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Quote:
On current demographic trends, we, the native British people, will be an ethnic minority in our own country within sixty years
Even if that's true, so what? Who the hell cares? I can't understand this crap, and I hear it here in my own neighbourhood all the bloody time! "Whites are going to be outnumbererd! This is a white man's country!! White people built this country and here we are letting all these brown skinned people in and they smell funny and they wear funny clothes and . . .and. . . . and.. . . . we are losing our culture!!!!!"

What culture? Egg and chips for breakfast? Let's get real. The real glories of English culture are things like the Parliament, and the great universities, and the truth that ENGLISH is the language that rules the world.

As for that idiotic agenda quoted above, those people are seriously simple-minded. What a crock. What a mixture of populism and ignorance - but wait - populism and ignorance go together like, um, fish and chips.

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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 11:44 pm
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vison wrote:
Quote:
On current demographic trends, we, the native British people, will be an ethnic minority in our own country within sixty years
Even if that's true, so what? Who the hell cares? I can't understand this crap, and I hear it here in my own neighbourhood all the bloody time! "Whites are going to be outnumbererd! This is a white man's country!! White people built this country and here we are letting all these brown skinned people in and they smell funny and they wear funny clothes and . . .and. . . . and.. . . . we are losing our culture!!!!!"

What culture? Egg and chips for breakfast? Let's get real. The real glories of English culture are things like the Parliament, and the great universities, and the truth that ENGLISH is the language that rules the world.

As for that idiotic agenda quoted above, those people are seriously simple-minded. What a crock. What a mixture of populism and ignorance - but wait - populism and ignorance go together like, um, fish and chips.
Personally I prefer fries with gravy and cheese. I went to a little mom and pops cafe recently and I had them make me some. Hmmmmm good!

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 11:53 pm
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**holds breath and sits very still

Dude, I think I just heard your arteries clog...

My parents claim the British colonized the world in search of decent food. I think their first trip to London in the 70's left them a bit scarred. When I went in 2002 the only sketchy meal I had was the one my sister and I screwed up. One of the niftiest bits about London was all the snack stands selling samosas. Just out there. On the street. I also thought it was pretty cool that you could buy pre-made Indian sauces in the shops. Doesn't taste like the real thing, but it's pleasant and still pretty cool. That's hard stuff to find in the US, though it's been catching on and we have fewer brands. And you got to hand it to a country that came up with a dish called spotted dick. :damnfunny:

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Pippin4242
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Wed 10 Jun , 2009 11:54 pm
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Mmm, S_O and I discussed that bit of cultural disparity. Seems to me that Indian food is a lot more novel in other western countries than it is here. I grew up on home-made curry, amongst many other things. :)

-Pips-

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Thu 11 Jun , 2009 12:01 am
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Well, you guys hit a culinary gold mine when you colonized the Indian subcontinent. ;)

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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Thu 11 Jun , 2009 3:15 am
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RELStuart wrote:
Personally I prefer fries with gravy and cheese. I went to a little mom and pops cafe recently and I had them make me some. Hmmmmm good!
Sounds like you should move to Canada. :D Poutine is, like, their national dish. I was too afraid to try it.


It's been my experience that Thai restaurants are more common in the States than Indian restaurants. So Americans tend towards Thai curry rather than Indian curry. Or maybe I just like Thai food better so I notice the Thai restaurants more often. :P


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Lidless
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Thu 11 Jun , 2009 7:10 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Iavas wrote:
Are we 100% certain that "non-white" is meant literally here?
Err...there's even a legal definition in the constitution, dude. Did you read it?
Iavas wrote:
BNP would have to become quite a bit clearer about not being discriminatory in any way.
It's in the constitution, dude. Did you read it?

Whether the party attracts terrorist or violent tendancies or not, talking about individuals or not, talking of past histories and/or quotes really is a moot point. Whatever stage one of the implementation is, a softer version of the Constitution, in this case cutting immigration, it's another moot point.

Cutting to the chase, you're defending a party where if you are a law-abiding citizen, a church-going Christian and an honourable profession such as a teacher, born in England, you're not welcome in the country if you're black.

Perhaps a party where stricter immigration controls is the end of the story you need to find. The BNP ain't it. You can't see that? You're using rose-tinted glasses on the BNP? :rofl:

It really is crystal clear.

Stop being a... Boromir. The BNP is like the Ring. You would use it in an attempt to do good, but...

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Nin
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Thu 11 Jun , 2009 7:17 am
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Quote:
EDUCATION - discipline, standards, achievement!

We are against the ‘trendy’ teaching methods that have made Britain one of the most poorly educated nations in Europe. We will end the practice of politically correct indoctrination in all its guises and we will restore discipline in the classroom, give authority back to teachers and put far greater emphasis on training young people in the industrial and technological skills necessary in the modern world. We will also seek to instill in our young people knowledge of and pride in the history, cultures and heritage of the native peoples of Britain.
I would quit my job immediately if such a thing was asked of me as a teacher.

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Lidless
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Thu 11 Jun , 2009 8:27 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Given you live in Switzerland, I'm not surprised!!!!

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Thu 11 Jun , 2009 3:59 pm
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What I don't understand is the idea that 'White' people being the majority anywhere on this planet.

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jewelsong
Post subject: Re: If I'm going to come back, it should be to controversy :P
Posted: Thu 11 Jun , 2009 5:54 pm
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Quote:
We will also seek to instill in our young people knowledge of and pride in the history, cultures and heritage of the native peoples of Britain.
And...um....WHO are these "native peoples" of Britain? The Celts? The Picts? The Saxons?

What of all the people with Indian ancestry? Do they count, since Great Britain, like, conquered their country and so on? Probably not, since they're not white. Ship 'em back to India - they can answer phones. Oh, wait - they do that now.

Populations of countries change. Races merge and evolve. The face of the nation is no longer pure white. Get over it.

The BNP is nothing more than a white supremacy organization, dressed up with a fancy ribbon. Sounds just like the Ku Klux Klan when they tried to sound more "respectable" and all.


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