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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jun , 2009 3:25 pm 
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
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Or, as Jesus put it, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

(I'm a big fan of common sense being applied to the law, too.)

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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jun , 2009 6:56 pm 
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Albert Einstein once said that as far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.

I'd expand that.

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Screenshot from the upcoming ROTK: EEE. PJ, I love ya and all you've done to put us Tolkien geeks into the mainstream, but this crosses a line.


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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jun , 2009 8:08 pm 
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LalaithUrwen wrote:
It does sound like she should've quit while she was ahead. Was there something she was trying to prove?


She was never "ahead". She went from owing hundreds of thousands, and when she said "that's pretty unreasonable for a few songs" she was punished for saying so by owing millions. The previous case, which was already unreasonable, didn't make enough of an example. This isn't about justice, it's about punishing her so harshly that nobody else will do what she did.

They'll never collect a dime of this judgement. The money simply doesn't exist. I'd have to ask a laywer what happens when someone whose net worth is in the thousands is handed a bill for millions, but they'll never collect a dime.

She should write them a check for $1 every month until it is paid off.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jun , 2009 11:06 pm 
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The record executives have spent years bilking the consumer for money so when they cry poverty at the illegal downloads, I have no sympathy for them regardless of the law, or ethics. Thieves cannot claim the moral high ground when the stealing is on the other foot. For all of the "but the musicians need the money" garbage, understand that the musicians make little off of the records bought in Best Buy, or Sam Goody, etc.

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 1:26 am 
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This isn't about justice, it's about punishing her so harshly that nobody else will do what she did.

That indeed is one of the points of any punishment -to deter others from doing the same thing.

Quote:
They'll never collect a dime of this judgement. The money simply doesn't exist. I'd have to ask a laywer what happens when someone whose net worth is in the thousands is handed a bill for millions, but they'll never collect a dime.


There are judgments that are uncollectable. What other information do you have that says not a dime of this will ever be collected?

Quote:
She should write them a check for $1 every month until it is paid off.

I suspect that there exists a court procedure for determining just how much a person can afford to pay even on a payment system.

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 1:37 am 
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I'd like to point out that if anyone has an avatar or signature picture that was taken off the net, the image was probably copywrited. Thus if you downloaded a picture with out permission of the owner you might be expected to pay for the picture for use. Just a thought.

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 2:06 am 
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Good point. Glad mine is legit.

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 6:16 am 
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My sig was created by my friend for our game company, so I think I'm safe.

Quote:
That indeed is one of the points of any punishment -to deter others from doing the same thing.


In an recession, the 8th amendment still applies. Will the record execs have to pay the millions that they bilked out of consumers for overpriced CDs that cost far less to advertise, and produce than their 25 dollar price tag? No. Will the musicians who make barely anything from CDs purchased at Best Buy get their fair share of this settlement? No. The thieves will get away with swindling more, and with the backing of the United States justice system. God bless America, right?

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 6:16 am 
Insolent Pup
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My sig was created by my friend for our game company, so I think I'm safe.

Quote:
That indeed is one of the points of any punishment -to deter others from doing the same thing.


In an recession, the 8th amendment still applies. Will the record execs have to pay the millions that they bilked out of consumers for overpriced CDs that cost far less to advertise, and produce than their 25 dollar price tag? No. Will the musicians who make barely anything from CDs purchased at Best Buy get their fair share of this settlement? No. The thieves will get away with swindling more, and with the backing of the United States justice system. God bless America, right?

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 10:13 am 
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TED
I certainly understand your point about prices that are too high. But music or DVD's or books are not like food or fuel or housing which a person must have to sustain life. Sure, they make life better. Maybe a boycott would get the point across?

I support copyright law. Like all creations of man it is not perfect. What alternative do you see to the current delivery system of creative and artistic works?

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 12:57 pm 
Insolent Pup
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Quote:
I support copyright law. Like all creations of man it is not perfect. What alternative do you see to the current delivery system of creative and artistic works?


Firstly, the artist should be getting more returns on their creative works. A lot of artists are selling digital copies of their works through their own websites which bypasses, and screws over the record companies. Record companies do not like this, so they seek to sue people as their business. I think the dinosaurs will die in this case. DRM is failing, and I don't remember cases of the RIAA suing people that taped a song off of the radio.

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 2:47 pm 
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sauronsfinger wrote:
Quote:
This isn't about justice, it's about punishing her so harshly that nobody else will do what she did.

That indeed is one of the points of any punishment -to deter others from doing the same thing.


The point of any punishment is to punish the offender in a manner proportionate to the crime.

United States Constitution, Amendment Eight wrote:
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


There's nothing in there about making an example out of anybody.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 3:26 pm 
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Well the Iranian government wanted to make Neda an example, turns out she is going to be the Martyr for the upcoming revolution. I doubt that it is not exactly what Ahmadinejad wanted.

Making an example of someone oft times makes rebels come more together and form larger groups.

The punishment of this crime is in no way just or fair, and the record company's are probably dancing in their private jets all the way to gold record store because the fine is so high.

Is it going to stop illegal downloading, not in a thousand years. I can almost bet there is a group of people now downloading tons just to wave the fickled finger of fate at the industry.

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 3:40 pm 
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from CG

Quote:
The point of any punishment is to punish the offender in a manner proportionate to the crime.


That is one purpose of punishment. It is not the only one. We live in a society. Another purpose of punishment is to deter others from following the behavior of the criminal. Throughout history, going back to the days of the Bible, public punishments carried out before the populace were partly done for this purpose. The USA is no different.

This is from the Wikipedia article on PUNISHMENT

Quote:
Possible reasons for punishment

See also: Criminal justice
There are many possible reasons that might be given to justify or explain why someone ought to be punished; here follows a broad outline of typical, possibly contradictory justifications.
[edit]Rehabilitation
Main article: Rehabilitation (penology)
Some punishment includes work to reform and rehabilitate the wrongdoer so that they will not commit the offense again. This is distinguished not from deterrence, in that the goal here is to change the offender's attitude to what they have done, and make them come to see that their behavior was wrong. also
[edit]Incapacitation / Societal protection
Incapacitation is a justification of punishment that refers to when the offender’s ability to commit further offenses is removed. This is a forward-looking justification of punishment that views the future reductions in re-offending as sufficient justification for the punishment. This can occur in one of two ways; the offender’s ability to commit crime can be physically removed, or the offender can be geographically removed.
The offender’s ability to commit crime can be physically removed in several ways. This can include cutting the hands off a thief, as well as other crude punishments. The castration of offenders is another punishment that can be justified by incapacitation, furthered by recent media coverage in Britain of the proposed chemical castration of sexual offenders. Incapacitation, in this sense, can include any number of punishments including taking away the driving license of a dangerous driver but can also include capital punishment.
Despite this, incapacitation is predominately thought of as incarceration. Imprisonment has the effect of confining prisoners, physically preventing them from committing crimes against those outside, i.e. protecting the community. Before the widespread use of imprisonment, banishment was used as a form of incapacitation. Nowadays courts have a flexible array of sentence options available to them that can restrict offender’s movements, and subsequently their ability to commit crime. Football hooligans can, for example, be required to attend centres during football matches.
Selective incapacitation is a modified form of incapacitation that rationalises the practice of giving only dangerous and persistent offenders long, and in some case indefinite, prison sentences. The approach adopts a utilitarian viewpoint that regards the protection, and subsequent happiness, of the majority as justification of giving excessive and indefinite prison sentences. There is, however, strong moral opposition to this concept.
[edit]Deterrence / Prevention
To act as a measure of prevention to those who are contemplating criminal activity.



from CG
Quote:
United States Constitution, Amendment Eight wrote:
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


There's nothing in there about making an example out of anybody.


If anyone feels that their punishment is a violation of the US Constitition they can then appeal their case. The American Civil Liberties Union sometimes takes such cases at no financial cost to the appealant.

And there is nothing in there which says you cannot hope to deter others either. It is basic common sense. This is from the Wikipedia article on DETERRENCE

Quote:
Deterrence is often contrasted with retributivism, which holds that punishment is a necessary consequence of a crime and should be calculated based on the gravity of the wrong done.
Deterrence can be divided into three separate categories.
Specific deterrence focuses on the individual in question. The aim of these punishments is to discourage the criminal from future criminal acts by instilling an understanding of the consequences.
General or indirect deterrence focuses on general prevention of crime by making examples of specific deviants. The individual actor is not the focus of the attempt at behavioral change, but rather receives punishment in public view in order to deter other individuals from deviance in the future. The argument that deterrence, rather than retribution, is the main justification for punishment is a hallmark of the rational choice theory and can be traced to Cesare Beccaria whose well-known treatise On Crimes and Punishments (1764), condemned torture and the death penalty and Jeremy Bentham who made two distinct attempts during his life to critique the death penalty.[1]

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 5:58 pm 
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Ara-anna wrote:
Well the Iranian government wanted to make Neda an example, turns out she is going to be the Martyr for the upcoming revolution. I doubt that it is not exactly what Ahmadinejad wanted.

Making an example of someone oft times makes rebels come more together and form larger groups.

The punishment of this crime is in no way just or fair, and the record company's are probably dancing in their private jets all the way to gold record store because the fine is so high.

Is it going to stop illegal downloading, not in a thousand years. I can almost bet there is a group of people now downloading tons just to wave the fickled finger of fate at the industry.


Exactly. When you forget or ignore justice in a quest for retribution or revenge you create more enemies than you get rid of. There is no justice in this case.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 7:09 pm 
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Create more enemies????

Of what?????

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 7:50 pm 
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The Man.

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 9:56 pm 
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More importantly, the record companies and these sorts of laws.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 11:06 pm 
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What does that mean...... "these sorts of laws"??????

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 11:10 pm 
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There is law, and Constitutionality that may help the record companies sleep like babies in their money beds, but there is also something call decency. We live in a society, right sf? Society is made of people. Something may be legal, but what does it show about the company's concerns? Not people, but greed. Pure, unadulterated greed. The thieves have been getting away with robbery for years, and are grasping at the last straws to keep their greed legal.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

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