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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun , 2009 11:16 pm 
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TED
This is interesting. I can take lots of what you said and apply it to my side of the question.

I see greed also from those who simply want music or films and do not want to pay for them. They have the technology so they take it. Like you said so well

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Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jun , 2009 12:08 am 
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sauronsfinger wrote:
What does that mean...... "these sorts of laws"??????


Laws that allow punishments vastly outweighing these crimes.


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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jun , 2009 12:27 am 
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Ordinarily I would be outraged at this judgment. In this case, the attorney who took this case on pro bono is the attorney I dislike more than any other US practitioner. His professional judgment exercised in taking the case was extraordinarily poor. His client's judgment in refusing a minimal settlement was equally poor; she was undeniably responsible for the civil violations of which she was accused. Instead, she forced the taxpayers to pay for two unnecessary federal trials. She also was dishonest and obfuscated the discovery process, handing over a newly replaced hard drive to the RIAA* (and failing to mention her previous hard drive on which the infringing files were.)

Under the circumstances, I can see why the jury would have felt the urge to award a theatrically high judgment, though the RIAA is unlikely to recover it. The RIAA has indicated its willingness to settle the case post-verdict. I don't think they wanted a theatrical verdict, or the bad publicity THEY will get from this. As best as I understand the case, they simply requested damages within the statutory amount, and the jury chose to go high.

* I believe the plaintiff was not actually the RIAA, but its member companies. I'm using the RIAA as shorthand.


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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jun , 2009 1:20 am 
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That is excellent information TP. It certainly helps explain things.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jun , 2009 3:16 am 
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sauronsfinger wrote:
TED
This is interesting. I can take lots of what you said and apply it to my side of the question.

I see greed also from those who simply want music or films and do not want to pay for them. They have the technology so they take it. Like you said so well

Quote:
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.


Except that your use of my sentiment is not analogous to a company for profit. An individual who is selling these illegally obtained songs would be analogous.

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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jun , 2009 10:40 am 
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I agree TED. If you are limiting the definition of GREED to making money and profit - then you have a very strong point. And I certainly do not sympathize or defend corporate pirates. I do think this is a problem where technology simply allows people to take things that they formerly had to pay for. It would cost a significant amount of money to accumulate a thousand songs or films but now people can do it for very little cost and without having to leave their home once they have a pile of blank CDs or DVDs for copying. That may be a different kind of greed from the corporate love of excess profits - but it is greed in its own right despite the differences..

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jun , 2009 2:50 pm 
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Since you can now buy single mp3s off of sites like Amazon for approximately $1.50 a pop, illegally downloading 20 songs is euqivalent to stealing $30 bucks worth of music. Pay a fine of $30 bucks.

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jun , 2009 3:19 pm 
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Quote:
Since you can now buy single mp3s off of sites like Amazon for approximately $1.50 a pop, illegally downloading 20 songs is euqivalent to stealing $30 bucks worth of music. Pay a fine of $30 bucks.



That is clearly not how fines work in the real world. If it were, there would be no practical reason NOT to steal everything you ever needed since your penalty simply says to then pay for it when you get caught. In fact, such a policy would have the opposite effect of deterrence and actually encourage persons to steal what they can and play the odds that they will not always get caught.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jun , 2009 3:26 pm 
Just keep singin'!
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sauronsfinger wrote:
such a policy would have the opposite effect of deterrence and actually encourage persons to steal what they can and play the odds that they will not always get caught.


Sort of like a parking ticket in Boston.

To park in a legal parking garage costs $25 and more. A parking ticket usually costs about $15....if you are caught. You do the math.


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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jun , 2009 3:29 pm 
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Excellent point Jewelsong. Next time I am in Boston I will remember that. ;)

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jun , 2009 10:10 pm 
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The problem with illegal downloads, and punishment is that the laws, and those who benefit from them (the RIAA) want to apply the old style of punishment to the new trends in media. It isn't working, and it will be revamped one day. DRM was a clear example of this. For those who don't know, DRM is digital rights management. A song from itunes that had DRM built-in was limited in how many computers you could play the song. Obviously, they were trying to curb filesharing, but it backfired because people stopped paying for DRM music, and record companies eventually dropped DRM music. If you buy a CD, and the record company sets it up so that the CD logs itself to the first 5 CD players you put that CD in, but won't play in any after that... you would never buy a CD. Why am I going to pay for something that I don't have control over? Something needs to be done to bring the laws current with the technology. Fines included. Itunes, Amazon, RealNetwork, etc have made record companies a lot of money, which is why these lawsuits give record companies such bad press.

If anyone here thinks that a 1.9 million, or 222,000 dollar fine for 24 songs is reasonable, ask yourself how you would feel if you got a 10,000 dollar parking ticket for running over time on your meter. There is decent, right, and legal... they are separate, but interconnected.

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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jun , 2009 11:14 pm 
Just keep singin'!
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The last two times I have legally purchased songs on iTunes, I had to check an agreement that said I wouldn't PLAY them outside the US.

Of course, this is ridiculous, since I live in the UK and regularly travel back and forth between countries and I bring my iPod with me. With the songs on it.

So I am not sure what iTunes thinks it is accomplishing. I had to check the agreement or I couldn't buy the songs - but obviously I will be playing them on my computer wherever I happen to be living.


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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jun , 2009 11:22 pm 
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And if the RIAA brings a lawsuit against you.... technically you're not following the agreement.

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PostPosted: Thu 25 Jun , 2009 12:28 am 
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And will be sued for around 30 mil, better cut it out. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu 25 Jun , 2009 12:29 am 
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.

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Yov, I hope you don't mind if I'm slightly off-topic here. I don't know much about law, just wanted share my own experience with file-sharing cuz I'd been thinking about it lately. I miss talking about music at b77, but I suspect I'd eventually go in a direction that people think I should be charged millions of dollars for. So hey, about that...

I despise the reasoning that it's okay to steal from music execs and celebrities because they are rich assholes who don't need it. That's such crap. Whoever it is, if they make a product I enjoy, they get my money. For me, downloading music is all about sampling. Film is a little different (usually you pay before you watch it, and tbh I don't agree with demanding a refund for something you didn't enjoy), but on music I am quite clear: I just want to find awesome tracks. Not trying to save money or rip anyone off, I'm just prowling for new favorites. Thanks to the internet, there is so much more available to peruse beyond our local radio station, my parent's record collection, and videos on MuchMusic. Maybe those formats are why I don't believe I should have to pay for a song before I've heard it, but that's what I think, and I'm glad I can test things out online first.

This is the good side of having no limits, imo. You don't have to wait for imports to catch on, or Letterman to finally book 'em, you just click 'play'. No filter between what the musician produces and what I hear on itunes. It is so relieving to know that music exists outside of what your parents own, the music industry has created for you, and tv censors allow to air.

I know a lot of people are okay justifying why they steal music. Perhaps my own reasons sound like bull, but for the moment, I believe in them. I've never bought so many albums in my life as during the last few years since I started file-sharing. I don't have a program for it, I just go to websites that are kind of like swap meets. Yes, I grab everything I can because it's free, but then try to play fair from that point on heh. I buy what I like, everything else gets deleted from the computer. Simple as that. I hear one argument is that artists make most of their money from touring and merchandise, so fans try to support them that way and download free albums until they're 'caught'. Fair enough. But try living in the middle of nowhere or having to shell out $600 for a plane & hotel cuz the nearest concert is a thousand miles away. Maybe record companies take too big a cut from any album I purchase, but... two cents off an album is way more than they'd make from whatever hotel I stayed at.

Basically, in my own experience, it's never been about pirating but sampling, and I don't steal music so much as borrow it. Shutting down websites or suing people like that for millions they don't have, I think is boiling the whole thing down to 'stealing what isn't yours', when there's a lot more to it. For instance: the $20 I'm guaranteed to give you for a well-made album I was able to test-drive, compared to the pocket lint and dirty looks any other option would result in.

Just sayin'.




*E*

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PostPosted: Thu 25 Jun , 2009 1:08 am 
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Quote:
I've never bought so many albums in my life as during the last few years since I started file-sharing. ... I buy what I like, everything else gets deleted from the computer.


Ditto. :) Limewire has definitely gained music sellers some of my cash.


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PostPosted: Thu 25 Jun , 2009 2:13 am 
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.

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I definitely started out with programs like that, but the spyware and misnamed files are too bothersome now. I've been really happy just joining music blogs. It's a bit more manual to search for exact albums, but I prefer to randomly click on things and hope it turns out well.




*E*

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PostPosted: Thu 25 Jun , 2009 3:49 am 
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*E*, I used to fileshare on a very low level for the reasons you just mentioned (and I mean off the radar completely low level, we're talking about setting music folders as "Shared" on a LAN). When iTunes appeared, I stopped doing that. iTunes wasn't/isn't a perfect solution of course, but it's gotten a lot better over the years. And YouTube and Pandora and such have hit the scene and artists themselves have taken to releasing tracks on teh intertubes via MySpace and their websites. You can sample your brains out now, legal and free.

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PostPosted: Thu 25 Jun , 2009 4:16 am 
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.

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That's true. I should probably clarify that I like having computer files so that last.fm can log everything I play on itunes. The last.fm part isn't necessary, but having itunes on shuffle makes it easier for me to pay attention, rather than individually clicking on myspace or youtube links.

I don't know much about itunes as a store, but I've bought tracks from it, songo.ca and gomusic.ru. Owning a physical copy of my favorite music is another comfort issue, though. ;) Sampling files is just the means to the end, but towers of colorful discs are the real appeal.




*E*

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PostPosted: Thu 25 Jun , 2009 10:27 am 
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I'm the same as you *E*. I don't want to go buying an album of an artist I'm not familiar with and then be completely disappointed with it.

It would be nice if Amazon or iTunes would let you download a song/album for a day or two to see if you like it and have it lock up after that time unless you buy it. Or at least let us play it on their site so we can hear it first.

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