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MJ and Fatherhood

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: MJ and Fatherhood
Posted: Sat 27 Jun , 2009 2:01 pm
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You have to wonder about what happens to his "children". He had very little to do with actually being the father to them other than picking out the sperm donor and the mother. Other than some legal forms, are they really his children? What happens if the actual biological father comes forth and puts in some claim to get at the kids possible inheritance?

If anyone watched Keith Olbermann on Friday night, he had the absolute most revealing interview on Jackson and his troubles. It was with noted author Deepak Chopra and it was hair raising.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FuBIAQt6FE

The interview is2 minutes into the video.

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Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Sat 27 Jun , 2009 4:57 pm
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That's news to me, sf. He was married to the mother of his first two children, so I figured the sperm came from either himself or Debbie Rowe.




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jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Sat 27 Jun , 2009 5:19 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
You have to wonder about what happens to his "children". He had very little to do with actually being the father to them other than picking out the sperm donor and the mother. Other than some legal forms, are they really his children? What happens if the actual biological father comes forth and puts in some claim to get at the kids possible inheritance?.
You are making a number of unsupported assumptions here, SF.

I don't know why you put the word "children" in quotes. I mean, they ARE children, aren't they?
How do you know how much he had to do with them?
His children lived with him almost from birth, not their mother. The first two were from his wife and the last one was from a hired surrogate.
He has always claimed to be the biological father of all three children.
There has been plenty of speculation about his paternity, but it has remained just that - speculation.
Most people close to Jackson have stated that he was an attentive and loving father. You may choose not to believe this but there is no evidence to say otherwise.
Asking "other than some legal forms are they really his children?" is really insulting to any adoptive parents.

You might have no use for Jackson, but your post has no supporting evidence and is kind of unfair, I think.


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Wilma
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Sat 27 Jun , 2009 6:56 pm
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Once I heard the news I did think of the kids. Here is hoping someone stable gets them. Since the whole family is a bit off. I felt really sorry for Jermaine Jackson having to do a press conference hours after losing his younger brother.

About Micheal Jackson himself yes he did descend into weird weirdness but you have to remember how he grew up. He was very famous from a very young age and it obviously did effect him.

No one can can deny that he was brilliant entertainer and his contributions to music and dance are pretty phenomenal. Whether a person was a fan of him or not, some some part modern pop culture that most people enjoy was influenced or inspired by him. (Usher and Justin Timblerlake just to name a few a couple of people inspired by him. The red jacket from Thriller was an iconic piece of 80's fashion.)

Just because his end wasn't actually that successful does not mean his legendary accomplishments or somehow ... now as valuble because he went a little coo coo.

He broke race barriers and end heck even people who he broke of relationships with were talking about his contribution to pop culture. (Ex: Dick Clack, Quincy Jones and Sir Paul McCartney).

For me his post thriller (mid eighties) was what I grew up with and I learned of the old school stuff, and the Jackson 5. I remember being afraid the Thriller video since he had those scary yellow eyes. Like Dave_LF said it is like losing a word from your own vocabulary.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Sun 28 Jun , 2009 4:12 pm
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Regarding the offspring of Jackson: there have been several talking head experts on various news shows including on both CNN and MSNBC who firmly stated with not qualifying words such as "allegedly" or "supposedly " that those three kids were not created with any sperm or DNA from Michael Jackson. I really do not care enough about this to track it down but I am repeating what has been mentioned many times over the past few days in the media coverage. One came from a woman who was a reporter and wrote a book about his trial and said it on the Friday MSNBC Countdown show.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a1kBYHHVE4
this is from Geraldo saying that Debbie Rowe - the mother - says MJ is not the father

This from Britains Daily Mail paints a far different picture than many of the glowing news stories we have been seeing

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-ago.html

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Alatar
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Sun 28 Jun , 2009 5:20 pm
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Whether by DNA or not (which is really unimportant), he was their Dad, and to suggest otherwise is insulting.


From the same source as your link (I wonder at your selective quotes):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... death.html

When the children were told of Michaels passing, Paris sobbed "No, no, Daddy, no, no". Enough said.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Sun 28 Jun , 2009 10:04 pm
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Alatar - if you find reality insulting that is your right. Several times over the last few days the subject of the real paternity has been brought up on mainstream news shows in the context of the estate and how it will be possibly challenged in court. Despite a possible $400 million dollar debt left behind by Jackson, he also left between 100 and 200 recorded songs that could be worth a fortune. He left them to his children.

I realize that this is a honeymoon period of sorts with Jackson soon after his unexpected death. For many, its like it is 1987 all over again and the last two decades never happened in Jackson's life. That is fine and people can exercise all the selective memory they want to .

from Alatar:
Quote:
(I wonder at your selective quotes):
What selected quotes are you talking about? I gave no quotes. I linked to an entire article and a long TV news story.

I would remind everyone of what happened with Anna Nicole Smith and the fight for her money which is still being fought and it is being fought over the issue of paternity. The Jackson case will not be new, unique or different.

Debbie Rowe, the nurse for a doctor that Jackson saw and who became his wife and mother of the two oldest children has already said that she will pursue custody of the two children. She would know better than anyone about any questions concerning paternity.

Diane Dimond on Keith Olbermann countdown discussing the issue

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#31574861

it is what it is.

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The Watcher
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Mon 29 Jun , 2009 8:13 pm
Same as it ever was
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He died, probably before his time. Yes he was bizarre acting and over the top, but, those little kids matter, no matter what one thinks of MJ.

It just saddens me that yet again, fame and fortune is no guarantee for a truly happy and successful life. MJ wanted what he could never have, he never found it, and, I hope in all my heart that his kids will find it and have happy lives. I understand family is stepping in. Why they did not do this years ago is beyond me. :(

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Alatar
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Mon 29 Jun , 2009 8:32 pm
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Ah yes. The "million flies" argument. It is what it is? How naive. It is what you want it to be. I'm not claiming the guy was a saint or satan. He was a deeply flawed human being. The carrion approach that I see in parts of the media and in your posts is what I find offensive. 3 children have lost their father. Just because a lot of people motivated by greed will try to leverage that doesn't make it right. I would have thought one who spent over 30 years teaching would have learned that much.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Mon 29 Jun , 2009 10:33 pm
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Alatar - I really have not the slightest idea of either what actually offends you or what your point is with these posts.
Yes, 3 children have lost their legal father. So now the question becomes who gets custody of those kids..... and to no small degree the money that comes with them. Many legal experts that have discussed this over the past four days have indicated that the legal positions of either side will be impacted by the actual paternity issue that I first brought up.
Quote:
I would have thought one who spent over 30 years teaching would have learned that much.
Maybe you can explain to me in very clear terms just what you think that has to do with me teaching children over my career because I have no idea what that crack was suppose to mean?

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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vison
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Tue 30 Jun , 2009 1:26 am
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Flawed human being? He was a predatory pedophile who paid millions in hush money.

I pity his children, whoever their biological father was.

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jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Tue 30 Jun , 2009 8:04 pm
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SF, your first post about Jackson's children put the word "children" in quotes, stated that Jackson had "little to do with them" and asked if he was "really their father" other than what was stated on a piece of paper.

Alatar is not the only one to find that insulting - I did also and I thought the "piece of paper" crack was disrespectful to any adoptees or adoptive parents out there.

You can be sure that if Jackson was NOT the biological father, he was in fact, the legal father...and the only father these kids ever knew. And I suspect they loved him as a children love a father...regardless of any weird tendencies, money, plastic surgery, etc.

I pity them as well, for many reasons.


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Tue 30 Jun , 2009 10:11 pm
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Jewelsong.... here is what I said
Quote:
You have to wonder about what happens to his "children". He had very little to do with actually being the father to them other than picking out the sperm donor and the mother. Other than some legal forms, are they really his children? What happens if the actual biological father comes forth and puts in some claim to get at the kids possible inheritance?
The one change that I would make is to take the quotes off the word children and place them on the word before it - his.

I have lots of respect for adoptive parents. I do not think Jackson fits the normal definition of that term. A previous musical act, The Beatles, once chimed that "money can't buy me love". But I guess it will buy you the rights to three children.

Last edited by sauronsfinger on Tue 30 Jun , 2009 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Alatar
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Tue 30 Jun , 2009 10:12 pm
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What Jewel said.

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jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Wed 01 Jul , 2009 12:06 am
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sauronsfinger wrote:
I have lots of respect for adoptive parents. I do not think Jackson fits the normal definition of that term. A previous musical act, The Beatles, once chimed that "money can't buy me love". But I guess it will buy you the rights to three children.
What evidence do you have (besides your own speculation) that Jackson did not love, care for and provide for his three children? And please don't bring up the dangling baby episode. That was a poorly-thought-out incident, yes, but proves nothing about Jackson's attachment to his kids.

Jackson didn't fit the "normal" definition of anything, IMHO. It could be that he was the worst parent on the face of the planet. But I doubt that. I would assume that his kids had an odd upbringing, under odd circumstances. But certainly no odder than many other children of celebrities.

Madonna has now adopted two children from Africa. Would you put quotes around "her" children? Just a piece of paper makes her their mother, right?


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Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Wed 01 Jul , 2009 9:37 am
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vison wrote:
Flawed human being? He was a predatory pedophile who paid millions in hush money.

I pity his children, whoever their biological father was.
Er, well, he was actually acquitted of the charges brought against him in 2005, Vison. The jury did not find the evidence given by the alleged victim convincing.

I do think that the 1993 case is troubling and leaves a lot of unanswered questions (that applies to the family of Jordan Chandler as well, IMO). But without solid evidence, I would be very reluctant to damn someone, although it can't be denied it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Wed 01 Jul , 2009 10:20 am
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Jewelsongs aks me
Quote:
What evidence do you have (besides your own speculation) that Jackson did not love, care for and provide for his three children?
I have never written anything of the kind. There was no speculation from me on any of those points.

Regarding apiece of legal paper...... TMZ reported yesterday, and it was picked up by MSNBC on their evening broadcasts, that MJ did not legally adopt the children in question. TMZ is not exactly the New York Times and could be considered a questionable journalistic source. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Wed 01 Jul , 2009 2:39 pm
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:scratch:

Didn't take Debbie Rowe to court for custody of the first two? Didn't she sign away her parental rights to the kids twice? Didn't the courts already rule the first two kids were his?

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vison
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Wed 01 Jul , 2009 3:32 pm
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Di of Long Cleeve wrote:
vison wrote:
Flawed human being? He was a predatory pedophile who paid millions in hush money.

I pity his children, whoever their biological father was.
Er, well, he was actually acquitted of the charges brought against him in 2005, Vison. The jury did not find the evidence given by the alleged victim convincing.

I do think that the 1993 case is troubling and leaves a lot of unanswered questions (that applies to the family of Jordan Chandler as well, IMO). But without solid evidence, I would be very reluctant to damn someone, although it can't be denied it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.
There will be many startling revelations forthcoming. Some will be true, some will be lies. The Chandler family was paid $20 million. Why? I bet Jordan Chandler will write a book. :(

What really bothers me, more than anything Jackson might or might not have done, is that hundreds of parents have been happy to push their kids into his notice.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
Posted: Wed 01 Jul , 2009 5:56 pm
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Vison is correct in that lots of shocking things will be revealed. Here is Debbie Rowe

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/2 ... 22027.html

this is just sad and pathetic.

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