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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Wed 01 Jul , 2009 7:11 pm 
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We have saying "Don't speak ill of the dead."

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Wed 01 Jul , 2009 7:16 pm 
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I'm hearing that the Oxi-Clean guy died of a heart condition.

As for Debbie Rowe, she seems like she might have nearly as many issues as Michael Jackson did. :neutral:

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Wed 01 Jul , 2009 8:15 pm 
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I agree with The Lurker. I certainly was no fan at all of MJ and his personal life fiascoes, but, in no way should that be imposed upon his kids or his family, who are grieving and will do the stepping up. It sound's like MJ's estate might be contested for years based on the will/trust issues versus the creditors, which only means that those kids will be dragged forth again and again into legal issues.

Billy Mays DID die, he was most well known as the promoter for all of the OxiClean products. He suffered a sudden fatal heart attack.

edit - P.S., Karl Malden has died as well, but nothing odd there, he was 97.

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Last edited by The Watcher on Wed 01 Jul , 2009 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Wed 01 Jul , 2009 8:29 pm 
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The Debbie Rowe interview comes from News of the World, and I think was proven to be fabricated, but I'm more sure about the validity of stories that come from them tbh. Which is: not much. :P




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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Wed 01 Jul , 2009 10:06 pm 
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sauronsfinger wrote:
Jewelsongs aks me

Quote:
What evidence do you have (besides your own speculation) that Jackson did not love, care for and provide for his three children?


I have never written anything of the kind. There was no speculation from me on any of those points.


Umm...you said:
Quote:
He had very little to do with actually being the father to them other than picking out the sperm donor and the mother. Other than some legal forms, are they really his children?


Sounds to me that you were saying he didn't do anything for them...ie, he didn't love, care for or provide for them. That all he did was "pick out the sperm donor." That he wasn't really any kind of "father" to them.

If you meant something else, please elaborate.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Wed 01 Jul , 2009 11:11 pm 
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My post was clear. I was talking about MJ and the biology of fatherhood. Let me run up a debt of$400 million dollars and I can provide very well for kids also.

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 12:20 am 
Just keep singin'!
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sauronsfinger wrote:
My post was clear. I was talking about MJ and the biology of fatherhood.


So, you are saying that adoptive parents have little to do with actually being the parents, then?

Oh, no, you already said you didn't mean that. Even though NOW you just said you were talking about the "biology" of fatherhood. But that you didn't mean Jackson didn't care for his kids. Oh, but that IS what you meant...except not.

Sorry. Your posts are way too confusing, contradictory and disingenuous for me.

If you think Jackson wasn't a good father to the three children (however he obtained them) state that and provide evidence for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 1:41 am 
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Jewelsong

here is my original post

Quote:
You have to wonder about what happens to his "children". He had very little to do with actually being the father to them other than picking out the sperm donor and the mother. Other than some legal forms, are they really his children? What happens if the actual biological father comes forth and puts in some claim to get at the kids possible inheritance?

If anyone watched Keith Olbermann on Friday night, he had the absolute most revealing interview on Jackson and his troubles. It was with noted author Deepak Chopra and it was hair raising.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FuBIAQt6FE

The interview is2 minutes into the video.


It is what it is. I was talking about the problems that are down the road due to the questions of paternity that will be raised and the central question as to if MJ was the father of those kids.

What you are attempting to do here is pick a fight by taking what I said and interpreting it....reframing it .... telling me what you think I really meant .... give it a twist..... add stuff that was not part of it ..... claiming that my post was something else other than what it was. You want to do that - go for it. Others here have honed that tactic for years now and I am used to it and know how to deal with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 4:00 am 
Just keep singin'!
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sauronsfinger wrote:
I was talking about the problems that are down the road due to the questions of paternity that will be raised and the central question as to if MJ was the father of those kids.


Fine. Of course you were.

Quote:
What you are attempting to do here is pick a fight...


Thank you for telling me what I am attempting to do! I had no idea!

Quote:
Others here have honed that tactic for years now and I am used to it and know how to deal with it.


Delighted to hear it! Carry on! :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 4:56 am 
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Although I have no way on earth of knowing for sure, I suspect Jackson was not a good father. He may indeed have loved his children, but love is not enough. A man who went through a sham form of marriage, preyed on other people's children, who lived a bizarre lifestyle, who altered his own appearance beyond belief in a frenzy of plastic surgery (was he a surgery addict?) - why would such a man be assumed to be a stable and loving father who gave his children a stable and happy home?

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 6:44 am 
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.

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Most of that list sounds like someone desperate to have their own children and rich enough to make it happen. I think he was abused as a child? Grew up with a "stage dad" at least, so probably went in the opposite direction and tried very hard to love and nurture his own children. Weird lifestyle, yes, but at least for the part he couldn't control (the public), I always liked that he tried to keep the media away from those kids.

I can't recall articles about their schooling or nannies, however. Perhaps he spent little time with them and/or kept them in a bubble. Short of that, meh his choice.




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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 7:55 am 
of Vinyamar
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Lets try this again

Quote:
He had very little to do with actually being the father to them other than picking out the sperm donor and the mother. Other than some legal forms, are they really his children?


Quote:
My post was clear. I was talking about MJ and the biology of fatherhood. Let me run up a debt of$400 million dollars and I can provide very well for kids also.


So, in small words. Do you think "being the father" has to do with where you stuck your dick?

Cause I'm a father to 3 kids. I raise them, care for them, look after them. I'm the biological father to another. She lives with her mother and her "real" dad. You know. The one who tucks her in at night. Stays up with her when she's sick. The one who is "being the father".

You're right about one thing. Your post was very clear.

It is what it is. Don't try to twist what you said to be something else. That post has nothing to do with paternity except to state that only paternity qualifies you to be a father.

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 8:19 am 
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.

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The first quote, I interpreted to mean he was doubting MJ's presence in the children's lives after he got custody of them. ie: like so many other celeb kids, it was more of a job for babysitters, housekeepers, nurses, etc.




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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 10:07 am 
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vison wrote:
What really bothers me, more than anything Jackson might or might not have done, is that hundreds of parents have been happy to push their kids into his notice.


Now that I totally agree with.

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 11:06 am 
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Any discussion which revolves around the question "was MJ a good and loving father?" cannot be answered by anyone here unless they have some first hand knowledge which goes far beyond the glimpses we have gotten in the media over the years. Sure, we can all engage in wild speculation and conjecture but there is no right or wrong answer that anyone here can come up with.

Alatar makes a distinction between the physical act of impregnating someone and the actual raising of children. As of today there is much evidence to say that Jackson did not do the first and we have precious little positive evidence that MJ did any of the second either. All we have are glimpses seen in the media of MJ and his children traveling with a large group of hired people who perform various functions for him because they are well paid.

I like to use facts and some sort of historical record to provide solid under pinnings for any speculation I engage in. Perhaps that is why I have little appreciation for the gossip oriented type of discourse that attempts to pass for discussion surrounding pop culture celebrities and their lives. Sure, it is fun and passes the time but none of us has any substantive knowledge regarding the parenting skills of MJ.

We do know much about his habits, character and eccentricities. Based on that knowledge, I would not have let a child anywhere near the man.

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 3:03 pm 
Just keep singin'!
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sauronsfinger wrote:
I like to use facts and some sort of historical record to provide solid under pinnings for any speculation I engage in. Perhaps that is why I have little appreciation for the gossip oriented type of discourse that attempts to pass for discussion surrounding pop culture celebrities and their lives. Sure, it is fun and passes the time but none of us has any substantive knowledge regarding the parenting skills of MJ.


Okay. Then WHY did you first say
Quote:
He had very little to do with actually being the father to them other than picking out the sperm donor and the mother. Other than some legal forms, are they really his children?


and then, when Alatar and I called you on it and pointed out that "being the father" had little to do with whose sperm it was, change that to

Quote:
I was talking about MJ and the biology of fatherhood.



Now, this time, you say:

Quote:
none of us has any substantive knowledge regarding the parenting skills of MJ


but then go on to add

Quote:
We do know much about his habits, character and eccentricities. Based on that knowledge, I would not have let a child anywhere near the man.


Which certainly makes sense, and MAY have been what you were trying to say in the beginning. However, your words and subsequent posts denied that and since you like to use facts and be very clear about what you are saying, we asked for clarification.

Which you now have finally given. You think Jackson must have been a less-than-stellar father, and are questioning if he was the "real" (ie: the caretaker) father to these three children, or if he just gave them his name and provided for them monetarily. However, you have also admitted that you don't know if what kind of father Jackson actually was and so you don't know if he had "very little to do with actually being the father." In other words, you were speculating without any real facts.

I can't imagine what kind of a father Jackson was, either. I can't imagine being the child of any high-profile celebrity - although he has been pretty much out of the public eye for the past few years. Jackson may have been very different in private than what he showed us as a public persona, too. And kids are remarkably resislient to things. Bottom line is, he kept them OUT of the public eye for the most part and they may have had a very loving, and caring upbringing. None of us can really know and we may never know.

But the fact that he may not have been the biological father has absolutely nothing to do with his "being the real father." Because, as Alatar pointed out, that has little to do with the sperm and the egg. And you can be sure that these three kids considered him their one and only father...and that he was indeed "real" to them.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 3:44 pm 
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Jewelsong
Everything I put in my first post was supported by news reports. They indicated the facts about the paternity questions and how these questions would most likely surface in future court battles.

Right now, very few people, and I would guess nobody here on this site knows exactly what kind of custodial figure MJ was for those three children.

I do know that from all the news reports I have seen that MJ was NOT the biological father -either from natural sexual intercourse or from donating his sperm to Debbie Rowe.

I do know from all the news reports that I have seen that MJ professed to love those 3 kids. I also know he loved his pets, toys and Disney memorabilia. Did he know the difference? I do not know.

I know he paid a fortune to settle charges of child molestation. I know he admitted on nationwide TV that he sleeps in the same bed with children that are house guests. I put those things together and I know I would not let my children anywhere near the guy.

I watched the circus come to town far too many times with MJ...... the dangling off the balcony episode,the Berlin circus fiasco...the kids wearing masks of feathers .... just far too many crazy events combined with the molestation charges for my comfort.

CNN is reporting the following

Quote:
In the day's final development, a London woman filed a 93-page handwritten document in Los Angeles Superior Court claiming she was Jackson's secret wife and the mother of all three of his children.

In asking for all of Jackson's assets, the woman also added: "I have up to 30 children. My Father (Satan the Devil) Khalid Lucifer as he is known, gave them to us."


Which may or may not clear thing up. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 4:32 pm 
Just keep singin'!
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Quote:
I know I would not let my children anywhere near the guy.


On that, you and I agree.

:)

(Also agree with Eru that the more serious debate/discussion should be moved to the Symp, if possible.)


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 10:11 pm 
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Debbie Rowe, the mother of the two eldest MJ children says "I want my children".

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31711537/ns ... ent-music/

onevery important excerpt:

Quote:
Rowe, who was married to Jackson in 1996 and filed for divorce three years later, surrendered her parental rights. An appeals court later found that was done in error, and Rowe and Jackson entered an out-of-court settlement in 2006.



So Rowe has not legally given up rights to the children. The circus gets yet another ring.

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Celebrities
PostPosted: Fri 03 Jul , 2009 1:03 pm 
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I think we will have to wait until the children become adults before we get a trustworthy picture of the household and its relationships. Too many people involved in this have their eyesight and probably voices distorted by money.

Before I jump to an easy conclusion that he abused children I pause and consider the case of a local composer, Benjamin Britten. It was clear he was fixated on boys and a lot of his work revolves about childhood innocence. He befriended boys and had them stay with him. So far, so predictable. But an actor, David Hemmings, who made some well received movies in the 60's and 70's (he was in Barbarella) had a fine voice as a child and was invited to stay with Britten. He said that Britten never did anything untoward to him even though he shared his bed once when he was homesick. He descibed the relationship as kind and avuncular. What I mean to say is that there may be people who may or may not have urges towards children but who do not act on them.
Britten certainly bridled at the gossip that he was a child molester. This is no proof either way about Jackson, just a caution that real life may be more complex than newspaper scandal or pop psychology.

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