board77

At the end of the day, when I check into a hotel room, I've rented personal space. I don't know about anyone else, but there is no place for a book telling me my beliefs are wrong and I'm going to hell as a result unless I change my mindset. The bible is very specific on this point.

Simple as that.

ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:

It's clear that religion stirs strong passions though there has to be a bit more offense to stir my juices.

Ditto. And usually I find it pointless to argue about religious beliefs (or lack of.) I do enjoy a good religious debate, though.

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If I read the Bible I insist on the King James version anyway for the language.

I own at least 10 different translations and interpretations of the Bible. I love the King James for the Psalms and Song of Solomon, I use the others if I am studying and still others if I am trying to garner some advice.

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Jewel, you say that seeing the Koran would interest you and perhaps I'd have a go at it too but don't you think that many of your co-religionists (not your individual church because I know you would instinctively search out a liberal and humane congregation) would go purple and froth at finding one in their hotel drawer and even dispose of it?

I guess some people would do this. I hesitate to call any of them my "co-religionists" whatever name they gave themselves. I find the Christian right a huge embarrassment to both my country and my faith.

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Or to give another example what about The Communist Manifesto? Imagine a group of communists going around South Carolina's hotels popping that into hotel rooms? What would be the reaction of the press?

Well...being as one cannot be a member of the Communist Party and also a citizen of the USA, this would never be allowed in the first place. Now...if I was in a hotel in China and found that book there, I wouldn't be very surprised or offended. 84% of the US population identifies as Christian in one way or another. So the fact that a Christian group was able to convince a majority of hotels to have the Christian scriptures placed in guest rooms is not particularly surprising.

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So it isn't only about providing a good read or some spiritual solace or something neutral; its about proselytising and one's reactions to that depend on who is doing it.

I think that when the Gideons first started their Bible ministry, there was a very different mind-set about it. As I said, I consider it a fairly benign form of evangelism. However, Liddy's comment about not wanting a book in his hotel room telling him he is going to hell (which is one interpretation, I suppose!) has got me thinking that perhaps this ministry should be revisited.

What I would like to see is a small library (one bookshelf, maybe) in every hotel lobby that was available for guests. This could have copies of the Bible, the Koran, the Torah (well, that's really the first five books of the Bible, anyway) and so on...and maybe some other books for guests to borrow and read. But this would have to be stocked by the different groups that had an interest in such things. And so far, the Gideons have been the only group who has had such a dedicated interest. Perhaps all the Bibles should be taken out of the rooms and put in a different place, accessible to guests but not actually in the room itself. But again, there would have to be some group that advocated for them to do this. And so far, no group has.

I suppose one could ask the management to remove the Bible before check-in. But it might be easier just to put it into the hallway and ask housekeeping to take it away, if it is offensive to you.

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being as one cannot be a member of the Communist Party and also a citizen of the USA,

Really? Why not? What happens if you become one?

ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:

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being as one cannot be a member of the Communist Party and also a citizen of the USA,

Really? Why not? What happens if you become one?

I don't know! But if you are becoming a naturalized citizen, part of the oath is that you are not, and never have been, a member of the Communist party.

You can be a member of the Communist party if you're born in the USA, though.

I'm a little fuzzy on the details. But there were some famous Communists who were also Americans. Wasn't Paul Robeson one?

You have to reject an economic theory before you can become a citizen? How weird.
No not just reject it, you must never have had it in the past even if you have changed your mind. Even weirder.

Boy if there was ever a question asking for a lie... It's about as obvious as the "have you ever used or dealt in illegal drugs" business immigrants and would-be federal employees get asked.

There was a time when we were seeing Communists under every bed spread. That part of the oath surely dates from then. I'm not sure what happens if you're from an Eastern Bloc country and are old enough to have been a party member.

I can't remember if Communism got mentioned when I took my loyalty oath to start my job. It may have. I did have to swear that I was not an agent out to do harm or some such. Between that and the background checks I can honestly say that I am 100% certified as Not a Terrorist.

Hah. The worst kind.

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But there were some famous Communists who were also Americans. Wasn't Paul Robeson one?

Paul Robeson was a singer... and a darn good one.

I think Joseph McCarthy might have been a Communist. But I cannot prove it.... I do have this list of names however

When Paul Robeson's passport was taken from him the Welsh coal miners held a concert specially for him where they sang:

We'll keep a welcome in the hillsides,
We'll keep a welcome in the glen,
This land you knew will still be singing
When you come home, sweet home, again;

There'll be a friendly light to guide you
For your return we'll always pray:
We'll kiss away each hour of longing
When you come home again some day.

We'll keep a welcome in the hillsides,
We'll keep a welcome in the vales,
This land you knew will still be singing
When you come home again to Wales.

I believe he heard it via a record sent to him. His son said it kept him from committing suicide.

Thanks for unnumbered version of the story of the writing on the wall, Jewelsong. It was surprisingly interesting, especially in light of the fact that magic users were not automatically considered evil back then. You'd think that particular aspect would have been edited out in the Dark Ages. I suspect alien intervention, though, for disembodied hand writing on the wall.

MariaHobbit wrote:

I suspect alien intervention, though, for disembodied hand writing on the wall.

If you really want "proof" of aliens, read the book of Ezekiel. Many people believe that he saw flying saucers when he describes a "wheel within a wheel." (I don't know about this, but it sure made a great spiritual - "Ezekiel Saw the Wheel." "Dry Bones" is also from Ezekiel - apparently he saw skeletons dancing around as well. )

Ezekiel 1

When I was thirty years of age, I was living with the exiles on the Kebar River. On the fifth day of the fourth month, the sky opened up and I saw visions of God.

(It was the fifth day of the month in the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin that God's Word came to Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, on the banks of the Kebar River in the country of Babylon. God's hand came upon him that day.)

I looked: I saw an immense dust storm come from the north, an immense cloud with lightning flashing from it, a huge ball of fire glowing like bronze. Within the fire were what looked like four creatures vibrant with life. Each had the form of a human being, but each also had four faces and four wings. Their legs were as sturdy and straight as columns, but their feet were hoofed like those of a calf and sparkled from the fire like burnished bronze. On all four sides under their wings they had human hands. All four had both faces and wings, with the wings touching one another. They turned neither one way nor the other; they went straight forward.

Their faces looked like this: In front a human face, on the right side the face of a lion, on the left the face of an ox, and in back the face of an eagle. So much for the faces. The wings were spread out with the tips of one pair touching the creature on either side; the other pair of wings covered its body. Each creature went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit went, they went. They didn't turn as they went.

The four creatures looked like a blazing fire, or like fiery torches. Tongues of fire shot back and forth between the creatures, and out of the fire, bolts of lightning. The creatures flashed back and forth like strikes of lightning.

As I watched the four creatures, I saw something that looked like a wheel on the ground beside each of the four-faced creatures. This is what the wheels looked like: They were identical wheels, sparkling like diamonds in the sun. It looked like they were wheels within wheels, like a gyroscope.

They went in any one of the four directions they faced, but straight, not veering off. The rims were immense, circled with eyes. When the living creatures went, the wheels went; when the living creatures lifted off, the wheels lifted off. Wherever the spirit went, they went, the wheels sticking right with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. When the creatures went, the wheels went; when the creatures stopped, the wheels stopped; when the creatures lifted off, the wheels lifted off, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

Over the heads of the living creatures was something like a dome, shimmering like a sky full of cut glass, vaulted over their heads. Under the dome one set of wings was extended toward the others, with another set of wings covering their bodies. When they moved I heard their wings—it was like the roar of a great waterfall, like the voice of The Strong God, like the noise of a battlefield. When they stopped, they folded their wings.

And then, as they stood with folded wings, there was a voice from above the dome over their heads. Above the dome there was something that looked like a throne, sky-blue like a sapphire, with a humanlike figure towering above the throne. From what I could see, from the waist up he looked like burnished bronze and from the waist down like a blazing fire. Brightness everywhere! The way a rainbow springs out of the sky on a rainy day—that's what it was like. It turned out to be the Glory of God!

When I saw all this, I fell to my knees, my face to the ground. Then I heard a voice.

This turned into a great thread.
Nin's post pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject.

Thanks. I always fear to sound too much like a teacher....

I usually forget that you're a teacher, I just like seein' ya post.

That's not meant to sound offensive btw. Teacher or not, I'd know to ask you for help with German, French, hydrogen collider stuff, Auschwitz maybe? and ~orc feeding habits~ for starters.




*E*

Anyone seen this yet?:

http://www.bobcesca.com/blog-archives/2 ... w_rep.html

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Texas high school students would learn about such significant individuals and milestones of conservative politics as Newt Gingrich and the rise of the Moral Majority — but nothing about liberals — under the first draft of new standards for public school history textbooks.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/ ... -Textbooks

I can't access the link from work, but I would have to read the curriculum in context first, before making a judgment. Both sources are decidedly left-leaning and neither is impartial or known for balanced reporting.

I don't doubt that Texas is trying to do something like this to their curriculum, however. Having their board of education be the force that drives most of the textbook publications across the country is an educational disaster, IMHO.

This is the link where most of the info came from:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/met ... 81189.html

This link was also in the Daily Kos post. It's supposed to be a first draft of the curriculum:

http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/teks/soci ... 073109.pdf

I haven't taken the time to read it through yet. (edit: quickly perusing it shows pg 7 to be a source of conflict...rightly so)

An article that really relates to this thread:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-moore ... 77749.html

All of what he says is quite true. When you grow up with it, it's harder to see that it's not so normal or right. Honestly all the stuff listed in that article are big reasons why I wouldn't want to go back to Texas. If I had to move back to the states, I'd aim for the Pacific Northwest I think.

Eru, this kind of thing is why people rag on Texas as a state. You usually defend it, and have taken umbrage in the past when people have pointed out the major issues in Texas regarding education and religion and so on.

Of course not everyone in Texas thinks this way...but the state as a whole (and the state government) has done (and continues to do) some pretty bone-headed ignorant things and they deserve to be called on it. Repeatedly.