board77

Quote:

I just get sick of being lumped into a group that is constantly having bad things said about it.

No one lumped you into anything. Don't take things so personally.

Quote:

And, for the record, I believe in an interactive God, Liddy. It doesn't mean I'd do something so ignorant as what that family did, because I believe God gives us common sense and knowledge for a reason. There's no reason not to seek medical help.

Don't take that story so personally.

Religion makes people do irresponsible things. The majority of followers may be able to act in a rational manner, but the zany ones always make it into the news for their irrational actions. The news loves those kind of people.

I have one last comment on Texas; I have been to Austin, and that town is one of my favorite cities in America.

Did I say or act in a manner like I was taking it so personally? No.

It can be rather frustrating to consistently have my faith or my God demeaned by a few people here (like it's frustrating when people do stupid things in the name of God), but whatever. Freedom of speech and all of that, and I'm all for it. And I try hard not to take it personally, nor do I think God needs me to be his spin doctor.

Ara-anna, I'm not really sure I agree with the statement that the Founding Fathers knew they were fighting for freedom of religion for faiths other than Christianity. I'm not sure Muslims or Jews would've been high on their priority lists. I am thinking most of them would've only had Christianity on their horizon, or, at most, a desire to be free from any kind of organized religion. It would be an interesting subject to discuss.

Jewel, that really is a rather brilliant prayer.

Lalaith,

I've no problem with people praying to a God for personal inner strength. If it works for you it works for you, just as some diets and methods of giving up cigarettes work for some people and not others.

Tosh pretty much summed up what I was trying to say.

Quote:

Ara-anna, I'm not really sure I agree with the statement that the Founding Fathers knew they were fighting for freedom of religion for faiths other than Christianity. I'm not sure Muslims or Jews would've been high on their priority lists. I am thinking most of them would've only had Christianity on their horizon, or, at most, a desire to be free from any kind of organized religion. It would be an interesting subject to discuss.

It would be very interesting to discuss that topic. Aside from freedom from religion, I think many founding fathers had deism in mind as well, which is kind of like christianity, but minus much of what makes christianity.

Many of the founding fathers had no truck with institutionalized religion at all. A number (more than "a few") were Deists who essentially believed in a creator-God who set things in motion and then went away. The long and the short of it is that America was a product of Enlightenment thinking, and while religion was certainly involved, Enlightenment ideas about religion wouldn't be particularly palatable to the fundamentalists who are pushing this stuff.

If schoolchildren are going to be taught about about the faith of Patrick Henry (and I agree they should be), they'd better hear about Franklin's Deism and Jefferson and Paine's opposition to all forms of organized religion as well. In fact, I might even go along with the Reconstructionist jokers if the end result was that everyone had to read The Age of Reason in history class.

Plus the fact Lincoln didn't believe in God.

I've read up a bit on that issue because it's complicated; if you want to find quotes or factoids that show he was churchgoing and religious, you can do it. If you want quotes showing he actively opposed Christianity, you can find those too. I think the answer must be that he was a conflicted doubter who felt the need to be conventional in public, but struggled and went his own way in private.

I am so sorry I only read up on half of this thread, but I did want to say that Austin Texas, has the highest number of PhDs per capita in the US. So there are some pretty brilliant people in the US. ( Something I learned from Anthropology class )

Wilma wrote:

I am so sorry I only read up on half of this thread, but I did want to say that Austin Texas, has the highest number of PhDs per capita in the US. So there are some pretty brilliant people in the US. ( Something I learned from Anthropology class )

I thought that was Los Alamos. Or Boulder. Or maybe it swaps around. Not that it couldn't be Austin - there's a pretty big university there.

I think the rest of Texas needs to mount a PR campaign. At present, the state is being defined by its whack-jobs.

Dave_LF wrote:

Many of the founding fathers had no truck with institutionalized religion at all. A number (more than "a few") were Deists who essentially believed in a creator-God who set things in motion and then went away. The long and the short of it is that America was a product of Enlightenment thinking, and while religion was certainly involved, Enlightenment ideas about religion wouldn't be particularly palatable to the fundamentalists who are pushing this stuff.

If schoolchildren are going to be taught about about the faith of Patrick Henry (and I agree they should be), they'd better hear about Franklin's Deism and Jefferson and Paine's opposition to all forms of organized religion as well. In fact, I might even go along with the Reconstructionist jokers if the end result was that everyone had to read The Age of Reason in history class.

I really agree with this, Dave. It's why it's ironic that fundamentalist Christians are pushing for something to be taught that didn't exist the way they think it did. I do think the importance of faith in the founding of this nation gets downplayed nowadays, though. It's just that it wasn't the only guiding force, as some would try to claim.

For heaven's sake, what moves nations? Money. Lofty ideals are great, as long as they make you wealthier.

(Okay, that was cynical.)

On a less cynical note, many of the first Europeans to colonize America did come for religious reasons. I just would be surprised if they would've fought for religious freedom as we know it today, i.e., including other faiths besides Christianity. They wanted freedom from the Church of England, yes, but they also often fought with other Christian denominations here in America.

It would depend on who you asked. For example, to colony of Maryland wrote freedom of religion into its charter, with no quid pro quos or exceptions. This raised many eyebrows when people realized that that included (*gasp*) Jews.

OTOH, Rhode Island got founded because the Massachusetts gang thought they were a bunch of heretics.

Quote:

I think the rest of Texas needs to mount a PR campaign. At present, the state is being defined by its whack-jobs.

There is actually is a campaign out there. The company I work for has done some events called Texas On Tour. It was to promote tourism in Texas.

Quote:

I really agree with this, Dave. It's why it's ironic that fundamentalist Christians are pushing for something to be taught that didn't exist the way they think it did. I do think the importance of faith in the founding of this nation gets downplayed nowadays, though. It's just that it wasn't the only guiding force, as some would try to claim.

How does the importance of faith get downplayed today? I'm unsure that faith played as large a part in the founding of this nation than fundamentalists like to claim considering the history doesn't support their interpretations of christianity.

TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:

No one lumped you into anything.

Bullshit. You said:

Quote:

I have an idea: let Texas secede. We clearly don't need them in the rational part of the United States.

That includes your beloved Austin.

Quote:

Don't take things so personally.

I can feel however the hell I please. That was an extremely unhelpful comment to direct towards someone who felt aggravated by a STUPID comment.

Why don't you develop some tact and then some understanding that people will feel differently in situations and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that?

On the one hand, Texas does seem to have received a double-portion of ignoranuses. On the other, I really should remember the "three fingers pointing back" rule when I point that out, because the way I feel about Texas is pretty much the way the rest of the world feels about America as a whole. "Sure there are sensible people there, but they let the lunatics dominate everything".

I've never thought of Texas as being more stupid than any other state I can think of. They all have different forms of stupidity.

Ara wrote:

Reminds me of the story about the guy who prayed God would save him and when he died he asked God why he didn't save him. God replied he sent three people to save him, yet he was too blind to acknowledge that God may answer prayers logicaly and with human help.

That reminds me of this joke:

Quote:

John, who was in financial difficulty, walked into a church and started to pray. ''Listen God,'' John said. ''I know I haven't been perfect but I really need to win the lottery. I don't have a lot of money. Please help me out.''

He left the church, a week went by, and he hadn't won the lottery, so he walked into a synagogue. ''Come on, God,'' he said. ''I really need this money. My mom needs surgery and I have bills to pay. Please let me win the lottery.'' He left the synagogue, a week went by, and he didn't win the lottery.

So, he went to a mosque and started to pray again. ''You're starting to disappoint me, God,'' he said. ''I've prayed and prayed. If you just let me win the lottery, I'll be a better person. I don't have to win the jackpot, just enough to get me out of debt. I'll give some to charity, even. Just let me win the lottery.'' John thought this did it, so he got up and walked outside.

The clouds opened up and a booming voice said, ''John, buy a fucking lottery ticket.''

Quote:

Why don't you develop some tact and then some understanding that people will feel differently in situations and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that?

Thought I could express my opinion in my own way, but let's not fight. This discussion of the influence of religion on the founding of the nation could be interesting.

Lalaith wrote:

It's why it's ironic that fundamentalist Christians are pushing for something to be taught that didn't exist the way they think it did.

The history teacher at my high school was at least honest about this. He called the Enlightenment "the Endarkenment" and had a rather low opinion of the founders in general.

Lalaith wrote:

On a less cynical note, many of the first Europeans to colonize America did come for religious reasons. I just would be surprised if they would've fought for religious freedom as we know it today, i.e., including other faiths besides Christianity. They wanted freedom from the Church of England, yes, but they also often fought with other Christian denominations here in America.

That's certainly true. My own ancestors are Protestants who fled from France to Holland to escape persecution from the Catholics, then a couple of generations later left for America and promptly started doing some persecuting of their own (though to their credit, that persecution at least didn't involve massacring thousands of people in the street). The high ideals expressed by the founders were never general, and many weren't even put into practice by the people who preached them.

Every state has their fair share of stupid people, and I doubt that Texas has a higher percentage than all the others. The bigger the population, the more stupid people. I'd say it's a matter of ratio more than anything else. Texas gets a bad rap, but it's a large state and will undoubtedly have a larger number of stupid people. They exist in every state, with slightly different characteristics. I mean, you California people should hear the way people from my state complain about you guys.

Bitching about Californians is something of a sport in the west, but I must say Coloradans are tame compared to Washingtonians and Oregonites (but, then again, WA and OR have been suffering longer ).

elfshadow wrote:

Every state has their fair share of stupid people, and I doubt that Texas has a higher percentage than all the others.

If you go by IQ, Texas is actually rather middle of the road (30/50 with an average of exactly 100.0 according to this). But the state is proud of its good-ol'-boy culture, and that affects both perception and reality. I'm sure every state has resident Christian Reconstructionists, but how many would put them on their curriculum advisory panels?